Thank you hockey gods
itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2019-04-09 6:50 PM (#724277)
Subject: Thank you hockey gods


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Finally! Draft luck. Now adding Kravtsov and Kakko. If they pick somebody else Gorton should be horsewhipped.
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robstones
Posted 2019-04-09 7:00 PM (#724282 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Chytil Kravtsov Buchnevich

I think we should still try to trade with CO to get Bowen Byram at #4
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rjpny75
Posted 2019-04-09 7:10 PM (#724284 - in reply to #724282)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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robstones - 2019-04-09 9:00 PM

Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Chytil Kravtsov Buchnevich

I think we should still try to trade with CO to get Bowen Byram at #4


Trade Kreider in the offseason. Sign Panarin.
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2019-04-09 7:15 PM (#724287 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Though, I'm not so sure NJ will not take Kakko first. Either way, we can't go wrong. What would be amazing is if they could put together a big depth package to the Av's who need NHL ready depth and talent now that they aren't in the top 3. Rarely teams trade out of picks that high though.
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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-09 7:22 PM (#724290 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-draft-lottery-results-2019/c-306620570
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-09 7:23 PM (#724291 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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I wonder if this takes Panarin off the table
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robstones
Posted 2019-04-09 7:36 PM (#724294 - in reply to #724284)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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rjpny75 - 2019-04-09 9:10 PM

robstones - 2019-04-09 9:00 PM

Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Chytil Kravtsov Buchnevich

I think we should still try to trade with CO to get Bowen Byram at #4


Trade Kreider in the offseason. Sign Panarin.


Oh fvck I forgot about Panarin!

Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Buchnevich Kravtsov Panarin
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-09 7:39 PM (#724296 - in reply to #724294)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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robstones - 2019-04-09 9:36 PM

rjpny75 - 2019-04-09 9:10 PM

robstones - 2019-04-09 9:00 PM

Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Chytil Kravtsov Buchnevich

I think we should still try to trade with CO to get Bowen Byram at #4


Trade Kreider in the offseason. Sign Panarin.


Oh fvck I forgot about Panarin!

Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Buchnevich Kravtsov Panarin

If Panarin comes here...He will be on line 1
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robstones
Posted 2019-04-09 7:42 PM (#724298 - in reply to #724296)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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Mikey Red - 2019-04-09 9:39 PM

robstones - 2019-04-09 9:36 PM

rjpny75 - 2019-04-09 9:10 PM

robstones - 2019-04-09 9:00 PM

Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Chytil Kravtsov Buchnevich

I think we should still try to trade with CO to get Bowen Byram at #4


Trade Kreider in the offseason. Sign Panarin.


Oh fvck I forgot about Panarin!

Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Buchnevich Kravtsov Panarin

If Panarin comes here...He will be on line 1


*when he comes here

Buchnevich Kravtsov Panarin
Kreider Zibanejad Kakko

There, fixed it

Edited by robstones 2019-04-09 7:44 PM
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-09 7:46 PM (#724299 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Hhahaaha
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-09 7:50 PM (#724300 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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NHL really let the Sens off the hook
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-09 7:54 PM (#724301 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Gortons good luck charm was Steven McDonalds badge!
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concust
Posted 2019-04-09 9:04 PM (#724306 - in reply to #724300)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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Mikey Red - 2019-04-09 8:50 PM

NHL really let the Sens off the hook


Yeah they're the real winners of the draft lottery. They went from trading first overall pick to fourth overall. Still not a good look but 3 teams jumping over that pick is the best case for them.
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concust
Posted 2019-04-09 9:10 PM (#724308 - in reply to #724287)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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itsmcilrathtime - 2019-04-09 8:15 PM

Though, I'm not so sure NJ will not take Kakko first. Either way, we can't go wrong. What would be amazing is if they could put together a big depth package to the Av's who need NHL ready depth and talent now that they aren't in the top 3. Rarely teams trade out of picks that high though.


NJ has a history of going off the board a bit but that was primarily due to Lou and his arrogance. They've played it pretty straight since then.

Having said that I still have a preference for Hughes so if Devils take Kakko I'm thrilled. But if Kakko falls into our laps, I'm pretty happy with that consolation prize too.
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Av-merican
Posted 2019-04-09 9:34 PM (#724312 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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I saw Hughes play live a few weeks ago, he's the real deal. But if even a tenth of the stuff I've heard about Kaako is true then the Rangers struck gold tonight. I'm really, honestly happy for them. I've maintained they've needed a true gamebreaker for a while now and, well, now they got one. There may be more coming if guys like Kravtsov and Miller are as good as advertised, but getting Kaapo Kaako is a huge win.
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Rranger
Posted 2019-04-09 9:45 PM (#724313 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Im a fan of Kakko's world junior performance and he's got a developing reputation as a clutch scorer. He's got the potential to be a stud. One on one he is a handful. Hughes would be a nice consellation prize, if the Devils choose Kaako. This is a real good draft to be picking at 2. Not a lot of value distance between 1 and 2.
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Mcphee
Posted 2019-04-10 3:20 AM (#724314 - in reply to #724313)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Pleasantly surprised with this outcome.Expected to move back, just like what happened after the lockout with Crosby.
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2019-04-10 4:15 AM (#724315 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Difference between these two rebuilding teams is the Devils have nothing in goal and very little on defense for the future where this organization is stacked beyond belief in goal and with defenseman prospects. I think you will see Lindgren and Hajek on team next year. Maybe Lundkvist. Gorton needs to clean house with the crappy vets on d. Shattenkirk, Smith and Staal. Either buy them out or retain to deal them.
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rjpny75
Posted 2019-04-10 4:55 AM (#724316 - in reply to #724298)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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robstones - 2019-04-09 9:42 PM

Mikey Red - 2019-04-09 9:39 PM

robstones - 2019-04-09 9:36 PM

rjpny75 - 2019-04-09 9:10 PM

robstones - 2019-04-09 9:00 PM

Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Chytil Kravtsov Buchnevich

I think we should still try to trade with CO to get Bowen Byram at #4


Trade Kreider in the offseason. Sign Panarin.


Oh fvck I forgot about Panarin!

Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Buchnevich Kravtsov Panarin

If Panarin comes here...He will be on line 1


*when he comes here

Buchnevich Kravtsov Panarin
Kreider Zibanejad Kakko

There, fixed it


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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2019-04-10 5:51 AM (#724317 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Having the 2nd overall and at least 1 more #1 and possibly 2 more #1's will help entice Yzerman and JD.....

GREAT days for the Rangers ahead!!

#MRGA
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Rranger
Posted 2019-04-10 6:37 AM (#724318 - in reply to #724317)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Rangerjunkie - 2019-04-10 4:51 AM

Having the 2nd overall and at least 1 more #1 and possibly 2 more #1's will help entice Yzerman and JD.....

GREAT days for the Rangers ahead!!

#MRGA




I will take Yzerman thanks. J.D. get lots of credit for teams in St. Louis and Columbus who haven't done much.
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robstones
Posted 2019-04-10 6:42 AM (#724319 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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With Kravtsov and Kakko coming in... and possibly Panarin.... that's 2-3 roster spots that get filled. If we go with the two lines I proposed... continue on with the bottom 6...

Buchnevich Kravtsov Panarin
Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Chytil Howden Strome
Lemieux Andersson Vesey

Brickley Nieves Fast

That's pretty deep up front... if they can improve the defense a little.... the goaltending is there, and just as deep if not deeper than the offense.

Lundqvist isn't going anywhere..... this team can compete next year by the looks of it if all the pieces fall right, and so far they are!.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-10 7:00 AM (#724321 - in reply to #724317)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Rangerjunkie - 2019-04-10 7:51 AM

Having the 2nd overall and at least 1 more #1 and possibly 2 more #1's will help entice Yzerman and JD.....

GREAT days for the Rangers ahead!!

#MRGA

Woooo!
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-10 7:01 AM (#724322 - in reply to #724319)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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robstones - 2019-04-10 8:42 AM

With Kravtsov and Kakko coming in... and possibly Panarin.... that's 2-3 roster spots that get filled. If we go with the two lines I proposed... continue on with the bottom 6...

Buchnevich Kravtsov Panarin
Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Chytil Howden Strome
Lemieux Andersson Vesey

Brickley Nieves Fast

That's pretty deep up front... if they can improve the defense a little.... the goaltending is there, and just as deep if not deeper than the offense.

Lundqvist isn't going anywhere..... this team can compete next year by the looks of it if all the pieces fall right, and so far they are!.

Zib will not be on the 2nd line
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-10 7:02 AM (#724323 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Im glad NJ keeps winning the lottery....They will be the Oil in due time
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2019-04-10 7:13 AM (#724324 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Vesey will not be on this team next year. I see no way he won't be dealt. Chytil IMO should play all next year in the minors. He's lazy. He's not getting the multiple messages that the coach sent him where as Andersson finally did the last 10-12 games. I see him taking a big step up next season. The expansion draft will factor into this.

If they sign Panarin my guess is all of these players have to be protected

Buchnevich, Panarin, Kreider, Zibanejad, Chytil, Howden, Strome, Lemieux, Andersson . Vesey and Fast I don't care about. You can do 7 forwards, 3 defenseman and 1 goalie or 8 skaters and 1 goalie. So, in other words, Rangers are probably going to trade Kreider at some point and expose Strome. Unless they are going to move one of those young players in a deal.

I would hate to see Kreider go but he's going to want at least 5 years a 30 million. You just can't do that with this rebuild with adding Panarin. However, there is the other option that they don't sign Panarin. More I look at this and the money he will want, more I think maybe they will pass on him. In which case they sign Kreider and protect

Buchnevich, Kreider, Zibanejad, Chytil, Andersson, Howden and Lemieux. On D protect Skjei, DeAngelo and Pionk. Keep some vet around to give the expansion team. I guess it will get complicated.

They could get balsy and protected 8 skaters, 1 defensemand and 1 goalie and sign Panarin

Kredier, Panarin, Zibanejad, Buchnevich, Chytil, Andersson, Howden, Lemieux and DeAngelo. Expose Skjei since they are crazy deep on the left side with defenseman.

Edited by itsmcilrathtime 2019-04-10 7:16 AM
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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-10 11:45 AM (#724335 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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I don't remember the Rangers picking in the Top 3 since I started following in '81.
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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-10 12:03 PM (#724337 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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I’m just glad it is not the same 4-5 looser teams that never go anywhere & never improve, slickless Oils, toothless Sabres, FL putty cats, the AZ Dessert puppies, finally none of those in the Top 5. Some other teams get a chance that may actually improve.


Edited by LeetchyMrRanger 2019-04-10 12:07 PM
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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-10 12:04 PM (#724338 - in reply to #724323)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Mikey Red - 2019-04-10 7:02 AM

Im glad NJ keeps winning the lottery....They will be the Oil in due time


THN does not agree with you:

https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/securing-first-overall-pick-h...
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concust
Posted 2019-04-10 12:22 PM (#724339 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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Ken Campbell is terrible. Also I don't know if Shero as a smart GM is a foregone conclusion either, his success in Pittsburgh was largely in place by the time he stepped in (Malkin, Crosby, Fleury, and a second overall pick for him to use) Sure I guess he gets credit for not f*cking anything up but that's not exactly "smart" either. His draft history in Pittsburgh... meh. He's a competent NHL GM but I think he's overrated personally.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-10 12:34 PM (#724340 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Shero is nothing special
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-10 12:35 PM (#724341 - in reply to #724338)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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LeetchyMrRanger - 2019-04-10 2:04 PM

Mikey Red - 2019-04-10 7:02 AM

Im glad NJ keeps winning the lottery....They will be the Oil in due time


THN does not agree with you:

https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/securing-first-overall-pick-h...

I am a fan of you pick where you finish. If a team tanks who cares
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-10 12:38 PM (#724342 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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After the Oil won it 3 years in a row it should have been thrown in the trash
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robstones
Posted 2019-04-10 12:56 PM (#724343 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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The Devils will be a skilled team... but they're soft.

Rangers are going to be bigger and much harder to play against
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-10 1:05 PM (#724344 - in reply to #724343)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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robstones - 2019-04-10 2:56 PM

The Devils will be a skilled team... but they're soft.

Rangers are going to be bigger and much harder to play against

Hoo Rah! Devs also have no defense and suspect goal tending...and Hall will be leaving
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-10 1:08 PM (#724345 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Kreider and the Winnipeg first to get back into the top 10? Avs might be up for that...or Get Trouba with that
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2019-04-10 5:18 PM (#724346 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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After watching Kakko highlights and reading about him, I really hope the Devils don't pick him over Hughes.

Nieves is going to have to give up 24
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-10 5:53 PM (#724349 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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If Devils tell me they are taking Kakko...Maybe sell the 2 to Colorado for the 4 (Cozens) and the 16?
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-10 5:54 PM (#724350 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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We are in a great spot...We get Kakko or Patrick Kane 2.0
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Pierre_Pdare
Posted 2019-04-10 6:37 PM (#724351 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/rangers
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rjpny75
Posted 2019-04-10 7:38 PM (#724354 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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Wait, doesn't this all still mean we get the Devil's sloppy seconds? If so, I'm all Phaneuf about it!
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2019-04-11 5:15 AM (#724356 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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The Hockey news has been sucking Devil dong for years. Lou was one of the worst GM's in hockey his last 7 years there and they never said crap. They have Ty Smith rated 20th which is laughable. He couldn't carry K'Andre Miller's jock strap as a prospect who they have rated 62nd. The Devils farm blows compared to the Rangers and both were rated a B+ by them. They vastly overrate the Islanders farm system as well. They have Wahlstrom ranked 31. He sucked in college this year. I was a bit ticked the Rangers passed on him. Boy did they know what they were doing. They have Bellows 93 but Lundkvist who played well vs men wasn't even ranked. They don't even know who Tarmo Reunanen is. He probably should have been ranked in the top 50 based off of his season. Only reason the Rangers wouldn't be ranked an A+ farm wise would be because Chytil, Andersson and Howden all played enough in the NHL this year. It should easily be ranked the number one farm system in hockey after this draft.

There is no other organization that will be as stacked with talent with forwards, defenseman and goalies compared to the Rangers. It's been a long time since anybody could say that. However, these small market, asswipe writers hate NY.

Edited by itsmcilrathtime 2019-04-11 8:37 AM
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sureshore
Posted 2019-04-11 6:42 AM (#724357 - in reply to #724324)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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itsmcilrathtime - 2019-04-10 9:13 AM

Vesey will not be on this team next year. I see no way he won't be dealt. Chytil IMO should play all next year in the minors. He's lazy. He's not getting the multiple messages that the coach sent him where as Andersson finally did the last 10-12 games. I see him taking a big step up next season. The expansion draft will factor into this.

If they sign Panarin my guess is all of these players have to be protected

Buchnevich, Panarin, Kreider, Zibanejad, Chytil, Howden, Strome, Lemieux, Andersson . Vesey and Fast I don't care about. You can do 7 forwards, 3 defenseman and 1 goalie or 8 skaters and 1 goalie. So, in other words, Rangers are probably going to trade Kreider at some point and expose Strome. Unless they are going to move one of those young players in a deal.

I would hate to see Kreider go but he's going to want at least 5 years a 30 million. You just can't do that with this rebuild with adding Panarin. However, there is the other option that they don't sign Panarin. More I look at this and the money he will want, more I think maybe they will pass on him. In which case they sign Kreider and protect

Buchnevich, Kreider, Zibanejad, Chytil, Andersson, Howden and Lemieux. On D protect Skjei, DeAngelo and Pionk. Keep some vet around to give the expansion team. I guess it will get complicated.

They could get balsy and protected 8 skaters, 1 defensemand and 1 goalie and sign Panarin

Kredier, Panarin, Zibanejad, Buchnevich, Chytil, Andersson, Howden, Lemieux and DeAngelo. Expose Skjei since they are crazy deep on the left side with defenseman.


You almost had me until you said to protect Pionk
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2019-04-11 8:35 AM (#724360 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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That's if they decide to keep him. Honestly, I don't expect Pionk to be here. I honestly think they might use him to get Fox. From all reports he wants NY. Carolina is screwed and they know it. I suspect Pionk and a 6th would do it. It's better than losing him for nothing.
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concust
Posted 2019-04-11 1:25 PM (#724367 - in reply to #724360)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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itsmcilrathtime - 2019-04-11 9:35 AM

That's if they decide to keep him. Honestly, I don't expect Pionk to be here. I honestly think they might use him to get Fox. From all reports he wants NY. Carolina is screwed and they know it. I suspect Pionk and a 6th would do it. It's better than losing him for nothing.


Objectively, yes, but there's also a point where it's more worth it for them to save face and have Fox walk, rather than make a sh!t deal. So they can say "we did our best, blame the player". If they take a bad deal (Fox for a 7th) then they just look like they gave something away for nothing. At that point they'd rather have nothing and be the martyr than take a 7th and look weak.

I still think something like Pionk and a third, would both get the deal done, be tremendous value for the Rangers, and allow Carolina to say "we got both a young NHL roster asset and a pick for the future," and Fox gets to choose his destination. Sure they end up with the short end of the stick but they don't get roasted by the fans and local and national media at least.

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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-11 3:59 PM (#724368 - in reply to #724356)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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itsmcilrathtime - 2019-04-11 5:15 AM

The Hockey news has been sucking Devil dong for years. Lou was one of the worst GM's in hockey his last 7 years there and they never said crap. They have Ty Smith rated 20th which is laughable. He couldn't carry K'Andre Miller's jock strap as a prospect who they have rated 62nd. The Devils farm blows compared to the Rangers and both were rated a B+ by them. They vastly overrate the Islanders farm system as well. They have Wahlstrom ranked 31. He sucked in college this year. I was a bit ticked the Rangers passed on him. Boy did they know what they were doing. They have Bellows 93 but Lundkvist who played well vs men wasn't even ranked. They don't even know who Tarmo Reunanen is. He probably should have been ranked in the top 50 based off of his season. Only reason the Rangers wouldn't be ranked an A+ farm wise would be because Chytil, Andersson and Howden all played enough in the NHL this year. It should easily be ranked the number one farm system in hockey after this draft.

There is no other organization that will be as stacked with talent with forwards, defenseman and goalies compared to the Rangers. It's been a long time since anybody could say that. However, these small market, asswipe writers hate NY.


I don't know if I agree. He goes to Toronto, & look @ Toronto now. He goes to Fishsticks & look @ Fishsticks now. He still has the touch. I fault him for letting all those great Devs players walk away for nothing, those were bad moves.
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Rranger
Posted 2019-04-11 9:37 PM (#724369 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Yup Lou is one of the worst GM's in hockey. Lol. Sure.
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2019-04-12 5:29 AM (#724372 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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He did nothing for the Leafs. That team was completely setup when he got here. Thus, they got rid of him. As far as the Islanders goes. He hired a really good coach. The team is not that talented.

Edited by itsmcilrathtime 2019-04-12 9:32 AM
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robstones
Posted 2019-04-12 5:42 AM (#724373 - in reply to #724369)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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Rranger - 2019-04-11 11:37 PM

Yup Lou is one of the worst GM's in hockey. Lol. Sure.


I honestly can't think of enough things to point at one way or another to say if he's good or not.

I guess the biggest thing is cups right.... maybe it's just because I'm a Rangers fan, but I've never seen the Cup winning Devils as the deserving team to win... as the best team in hockey....

And I can't think of any player Lou has drafted, and been like damn that was a good pick... or that was a great trade, Lou just stole one there.

I could really research this, but I don't feel like it. He's been a GM a long time, there's no denying that.
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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-12 6:39 AM (#724376 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Shanny said we need Lou here to put system together of how a team is supposed to be run. He was only going to be there temp anyway. I don't care about Lou, but he will go down as 1 of the best GMs, execs in sports history. I'm not 1 of those fans. I give credit where it is due.
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concust
Posted 2019-04-12 8:12 AM (#724377 - in reply to #724373)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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robstones - 2019-04-12 6:42 AM

Rranger - 2019-04-11 11:37 PM

Yup Lou is one of the worst GM's in hockey. Lol. Sure.


I honestly can't think of enough things to point at one way or another to say if he's good or not.

I guess the biggest thing is cups right.... maybe it's just because I'm a Rangers fan, but I've never seen the Cup winning Devils as the deserving team to win... as the best team in hockey....

And I can't think of any player Lou has drafted, and been like damn that was a good pick... or that was a great trade, Lou just stole one there.

I could really research this, but I don't feel like it. He's been a GM a long time, there's no denying that.


Lou is actually a pretty bad drafter. He did hit on Sykora and Zajac but aside from those two and top 5 picks (which point to a bad team more than draft prowess) his record is pretty bad over 30 years or so. He's another guy that likes to go off the board to show everyone how smart he is but it tends to backfire.

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Rranger
Posted 2019-04-12 8:18 AM (#724378 - in reply to #724373)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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robstones - 2019-04-12 4:42 AM

Rranger - 2019-04-11 11:37 PM

Yup Lou is one of the worst GM's in hockey. Lol. Sure.


I honestly can't think of enough things to point at one way or another to say if he's good or not.

I guess the biggest thing is cups right.... maybe it's just because I'm a Rangers fan, but I've never seen the Cup winning Devils as the deserving team to win... as the best team in hockey....

And I can't think of any player Lou has drafted, and been like damn that was a good pick... or that was a great trade, Lou just stole one there.

I could really research this, but I don't feel like it. He's been a GM a long time, there's no denying that.






How often were the Devils not competitive under Lou? Granted having Brodeur and Stevens and Neidemayer helps. But how did they get there? Three cups early in his Jersey tenure speaks for itself. Followed by a pathetic budget to work with for most years, yet his teams were always competitive. His patience in Toronto and Long Island appreciating what he's got and resisting big splashy moves shows many necessary qualities of knowing talent and understanding the process. The Rangers should have been so lucky to have had Lou as GM for all those years. Check where the Devils were drafting for so many years and its a testament in and of itself their competitiveness.
This started because the class goof called him ""one of the worst G.M.'s in hockey over the last 7 years in New Jersey"" which is beyond a stupid statement. 2012? upsetting the Rangers?? His track record picking coaches?? Ya he was one of the the worst Lol. .
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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-12 8:34 AM (#724380 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Don't forget Trevor Kidd was the can't miss goalie. He passed on him to pick a goalie named, Brodeur, which many laughed. He traded Kurvers to Toronto for their #1 pick then picked Neidermayer. I mean come on, I can go on. Rafalski, trades that were steals, really highway robbery, etc... Come on.

And, how many players on the Devils, career years, you wonder how they did it. They go to other teams, they fall apart to nothing. Kurvers, McKay, Holik, Gomez, forget the name of that player signed by Toronto a few years ago, etc... so many, so many. And, all the time I'm was saying how is it possible? It was the system. I always said do NOT trade or pickup x-Dev players, it won't be the same player.

Edited by LeetchyMrRanger 2019-04-12 8:46 AM
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sureshore
Posted 2019-04-12 8:51 AM (#724382 - in reply to #724380)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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LeetchyMrRanger - 2019-04-12 10:34 AM

Don't forget Trevor Kidd was the can't miss goalie. He passed on him to pick a goalie named, Brodeur, which many laughed. He traded Kurvers to Toronto for their #1 pick then picked Neidermayer. I mean come on, I can go on. Rafalski, trades that were steals, really highway robbery, etc... Come on.

And, how many players on the Devils, career years, you wonder how they did it. They go to other teams, they fall apart to nothing. Kurvers, McKay, Holik, Gomez, forget the name of that player signed by Toronto a few years ago, etc... so many, so many. And, all the time I'm was saying how is it possible? It was the system. I always said do NOT trade or pickup x-Dev players, it won't be the same player.


Feels like you can search for all the good moves he made (and there were plenty) to justify how good he was, but at the same time you can't excuse the bad ones by saying he was restricted by his budget with the Devils (not saying you specifically said this but it seems to be the theme - excuse the bad due to budget and call him a genius for his good moves).
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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-12 8:56 AM (#724383 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Little moves like Arnott, Niewendyk, Mogliny, all turned out. You are an exec GM since 80s, you gonna make some bad moves, picks, but the good moves/picks out weight the bad in a big way. Even the Stevens thing, remember back, was a gamble that he won.

P.S.: even a player like Parise crashed & burned after the Devs.

Edited by LeetchyMrRanger 2019-04-12 9:08 AM
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concust
Posted 2019-04-12 9:12 AM (#724384 - in reply to #724382)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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sureshore - 2019-04-12 9:51 AM

LeetchyMrRanger - 2019-04-12 10:34 AM

Don't forget Trevor Kidd was the can't miss goalie. He passed on him to pick a goalie named, Brodeur, which many laughed. He traded Kurvers to Toronto for their #1 pick then picked Neidermayer. I mean come on, I can go on. Rafalski, trades that were steals, really highway robbery, etc... Come on.

And, how many players on the Devils, career years, you wonder how they did it. They go to other teams, they fall apart to nothing. Kurvers, McKay, Holik, Gomez, forget the name of that player signed by Toronto a few years ago, etc... so many, so many. And, all the time I'm was saying how is it possible? It was the system. I always said do NOT trade or pickup x-Dev players, it won't be the same player.


Feels like you can search for all the good moves he made (and there were plenty) to justify how good he was, but at the same time you can't excuse the bad ones by saying he was restricted by his budget with the Devils (not saying you specifically said this but it seems to be the theme - excuse the bad due to budget and call him a genius for his good moves).


This is a very good point.
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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-12 9:13 AM (#724385 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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I remember Mogilny was interviewed & he said on the Devs you knew your roll, you knew exactly what you had to do, you job on a team, how to play, the piece of the puzzle that is you. It is a system. I got to Toronto, it is a mess. We make the playoffs win 1 round, & every one is celebrating. And, I say to the team, what are you celebrating, we haven't won anything yet.

Edited by LeetchyMrRanger 2019-04-12 9:14 AM
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Rranger
Posted 2019-04-12 9:16 AM (#724386 - in reply to #724382)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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sureshore - 2019-04-12 7:51 AM

LeetchyMrRanger - 2019-04-12 10:34 AM

Don't forget Trevor Kidd was the can't miss goalie. He passed on him to pick a goalie named, Brodeur, which many laughed. He traded Kurvers to Toronto for their #1 pick then picked Neidermayer. I mean come on, I can go on. Rafalski, trades that were steals, really highway robbery, etc... Come on.

And, how many players on the Devils, career years, you wonder how they did it. They go to other teams, they fall apart to nothing. Kurvers, McKay, Holik, Gomez, forget the name of that player signed by Toronto a few years ago, etc... so many, so many. And, all the time I'm was saying how is it possible? It was the system. I always said do NOT trade or pickup x-Dev players, it won't be the same player.


Feels like you can search for all the good moves he made (and there were plenty) to justify how good he was, but at the same time you can't excuse the bad ones by saying he was restricted by his budget with the Devils (not saying you specifically said this but it seems to be the theme - excuse the bad due to budget and call him a genius for his good moves).




Excuses for budget would pretty much be restricted to moves he couldn't make, props for resigning players, letting the right ones go and keeping the right ones. Rather than Sather for example, who's shotgun approach was laughable. Unable to compete for the higher paid players who are usually the best, Lou was impressive at picking up bargains. . It goes without saying his payroll had no effect on drafting, of which he had failures like all the GM's who we are to believe were better than him. No matter how you slice it he's had a great career and is recognized as one of the best ever.
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2019-04-12 9:35 AM (#724388 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Problem is clowns like some here live in the past. You don't look at facts. I'll say it again since some of you here are dense. Check the drafts from his last 7 to 8 years. Easily the worst in hockey and it isn't debatable. His not giving up the second to last draft pick in the first round with Kovalchuk fiasco was one of the dumbest moves by a GM I've seen. It also can't be debated that he did nothing in Toronto. He pretty much sat there. So far, his moves have worked out for the Islanders. However, we'll see going forward what happens to them. We saw this with NJ last year. They played over their head and came crashing down to earth. If you are going to give Lou credit. You also have to look at the stretch of 7 to 8 years where he freakin sucked and left the Devils as a complete mess.

Edited by itsmcilrathtime 2019-04-12 9:41 AM
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2019-04-12 9:39 AM (#724389 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Look from 2005 to 2015. The fact don't lie. Lou was completely incompetent running that team. He never had any clue what to do when the clutch and grab era ended. He lacked the skill to evolve.

www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007066.html
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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-12 10:26 AM (#724390 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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'He lacked the skill to evolve.' - this, I'll agree with you. Old timers like Big Lou, Torts, etc... are still in the 80s/90s. The game has changed, players have changed. Lou ran a tight ship, hard ass, SOB. This doesn't work anymore. Thus, he did loose all those players. He held on to the 80s/90s for way too long. I think you can see now he is changing with the times.

The Fishsticks made the right move, they knew they had to get a winner, change the culture of the franchise, if only this move in temp which it probably is. He is old. And, he brought in a good coach who is a winner. The Fishsticks are finally on the right path after decades of being ran by loosers & bums. No one expected what they did this year especially loosing 1 of the best in the game for nothing. I'm impressed & give credit to them from top to bottom.

Edited by LeetchyMrRanger 2019-04-12 10:34 AM
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Vua
Posted 2019-04-12 10:56 AM (#724391 - in reply to #724389)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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itsmcilrathtime - 2019-04-12 9:39 AM

Look from 2005 to 2015. The fact don't lie. Lou was completely incompetent running that team. He never had any clue what to do when the clutch and grab era ended. He lacked the skill to evolve.

www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007066.html


This coming from someone that is terrible at even armchair GMing. If you built a team, they would get run over by Harvard. Between your ECHL goalies, players that were just flat out released from their contracts, or the occasional guy traded for a bag of pucks, your track record would have the Oilers laughing hysterically at your incompetence.
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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-12 11:02 AM (#724392 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Considering we are in US not Canada, no one & I mean no one did more for USA Hockey & development of USA Hockey as we know it today & the talent today coming from US than Big Lou, no one. Leetch echoed this @ his HofF speech, Richter, Modano, all US players & hockey personnel of that generation give credit to Lou as the main driver of USA Hockey what it is today. He is a builder HofFer, NHL Hofer, & US HofMer.

Edited by LeetchyMrRanger 2019-04-12 11:05 AM
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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-12 11:16 AM (#724393 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Since we are on topic, I'll post a funny & interesting story I read. I think it was Burke. I played for Lou in college. We had a good team. One day Lou calls me into the office. He says, I hear you are a smart kid, studious, & have an interest in law. I said, I have more interest in being a hockey player, playing in NHL. He said, you are not that great of a hockey player, concentrate on your studies, finish the law degree. This is your career. I look back now & I thank Lou for setting me on the right path. How many in that situation would give that advice to a college player when competing for a national title. One, Lou.
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ej17
Posted 2019-04-12 1:16 PM (#724395 - in reply to #724392)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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LeetchyMrRanger - 2019-04-12 1:02 PM

Considering we are in US not Canada, no one & I mean no one did more for USA Hockey & development of USA Hockey as we know it today & the talent today coming from US than Big Lou, no one. Leetch echoed this @ his HofF speech, Richter, Modano, all US players & hockey personnel of that generation give credit to Lou as the main driver of USA Hockey what it is today. He is a builder HofFer, NHL Hofer, & US HofMer.

Herb Brooks
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Rranger
Posted 2019-04-12 2:24 PM (#724396 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Lou is a great hockey mind. Proven over and over. itsmacilrathstime not so much.
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concust
Posted 2019-04-15 10:03 AM (#724454 - in reply to #724396)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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Rranger - 2019-04-12 3:24 PM

Lou is a great hockey mind. Proven over and over. itsmacilrathstime not so much.


The irony is heavy when someone drops all his "hockey knowledge" on us "clowns" and he posts using the handle "itsmcilrathtime"
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Rranger
Posted 2019-04-15 3:01 PM (#724465 - in reply to #724454)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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concust - 2019-04-15 9:03 AM

Rranger - 2019-04-12 3:24 PM

Lou is a great hockey mind. Proven over and over. itsmacilrathstime not so much.


The irony is heavy when someone drops all his "hockey knowledge" on us "clowns" and he posts using the handle "itsmcilrathtime"





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Av-merican
Posted 2019-04-15 5:38 PM (#724470 - in reply to #724349)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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Mikey Red - 2019-04-10 6:53 PM

If Devils tell me they are taking Kakko...Maybe sell the 2 to Colorado for the 4 (Cozens) and the 16?


Avs would do that for sure, Rangers for sure should NOT do that.

The Rangers need a superstar, Kaako has by far the best chance of being that superstar, don't sell that off for a guy like Cozens or Dach who will no doubt be a very good player, but doesn't project to be a gamebreaker.
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Rranger
Posted 2019-04-16 10:25 AM (#724485 - in reply to #724470)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Av-merican - 2019-04-15 4:38 PM

Mikey Red - 2019-04-10 6:53 PM

If Devils tell me they are taking Kakko...Maybe sell the 2 to Colorado for the 4 (Cozens) and the 16?


Avs would do that for sure, Rangers for sure should NOT do that.

The Rangers need a superstar, Kaako has by far the best chance of being that superstar, don't sell that off for a guy like Cozens or Dach who will no doubt be a very good player, but doesn't project to be a gamebreaker.





Mike's suggestion was based on the NYD taking Kakko. Leaving Hughes there for the Rangers. The issue with Hughes is his limited exposure to quality opponents in meaningful games. His world junior tourney was ordinary. Personally I have more question marks about Hughes than Kakko who I see as a slam dunk superstar. The guys individual game and power is phenomonal. If I was buying I'd see Kakko as the more proven commodity.
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2019-04-16 12:31 PM (#724488 - in reply to #724454)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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concust - 2019-04-15 10:03 AM

Rranger - 2019-04-12 3:24 PM

Lou is a great hockey mind. Proven over and over. itsmacilrathstime not so much.


The irony is heavy when someone drops all his "hockey knowledge" on us "clowns" and he posts using the handle "itsmcilrathtime"



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Pierre_Pdare
Posted 2019-04-18 4:14 PM (#724699 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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When do the Flybitches trade for Fast? Chewie won't be able to sleep without him.

Edited by Pierre_Pdare 2019-04-18 4:15 PM
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-18 5:51 PM (#724715 - in reply to #724699)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Pierre_Pdare - 2019-04-18 6:14 PM

When do the Flybitches trade for Fast? Chewie won't be able to sleep without him.

Hopefully June 15
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2019-04-19 5:47 AM (#724748 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Like I said you dumb fuks. Look at Lou's last 8 years in NJ where he left the franchise as a pile of ****. It can't be disputed but you will because as always, you lazy bastards do no research. You look at what a player, coach and GM was and never change your opinion as they get older. Also, AV ruined McIlrath along with many other stay at home defenseman prospects. He tried to with Ryan Graves who had a good 26 games with the Av's. He probably has a good chance of sticking in the NHL next season.
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2019-04-19 7:28 AM (#724753 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Then again, well over half this board watches hockey with their eyes closed. Every coach this team has never does any wrong with evaluating our prospects. AV was a genius to certain members of this board. All that dumbass wanted was smaller, softer, puck moving defenseman. So guys like McIlrath and Graves were worthless. Just like McQuaid and Lindgren would have been to him. Yet, it took people on this board years to get a clue that he was an imbecile. Just like they don't get that this isn't Lou in the clutch and grab era. He hasn't done crap for over a decade until this year. The only thing he did was hire a top coach. The talent on the Islanders is not impressive at all. What talent they have was already there before they got there. It speaks volumes about how dumb some of the posters on this board still are. This old fart hasn't done dick in 10 years, his team has one good series and now half this board is sucking him off. Gorton is a completely superior GM at this point. He basically has stocked the farm beyond belief in less than 3 years from the stupidity of the tools before him depleting it.

Edited by itsmcilrathtime 2019-04-19 1:54 PM
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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-19 2:36 PM (#724768 - in reply to #724470)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Av-merican - 2019-04-15 5:38 PM

Mikey Red - 2019-04-10 6:53 PM

If Devils tell me they are taking Kakko...Maybe sell the 2 to Colorado for the 4 (Cozens) and the 16?


Avs would do that for sure, Rangers for sure should NOT do that.

The Rangers need a superstar, Kaako has by far the best chance of being that superstar, don't sell that off for a guy like Cozens or Dach who will no doubt be a very good player, but doesn't project to be a gamebreaker.


'The Rangers need a superstar' -> Yep, this is what was missing from all those good teams. If they had that Kane, that Ovie, that some one like that, the team would have won @ least 1 Cup.
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Rranger
Posted 2019-04-19 6:39 PM (#724773 - in reply to #724768)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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LeetchyMrRanger - 2019-04-19 1:36 PM

Av-merican - 2019-04-15 5:38 PM

Mikey Red - 2019-04-10 6:53 PM

If Devils tell me they are taking Kakko...Maybe sell the 2 to Colorado for the 4 (Cozens) and the 16?


Avs would do that for sure, Rangers for sure should NOT do that.

The Rangers need a superstar, Kaako has by far the best chance of being that superstar, don't sell that off for a guy like Cozens or Dach who will no doubt be a very good player, but doesn't project to be a gamebreaker.


'The Rangers need a superstar' -> Yep, this is what was missing from all those good teams. If they had that Kane, that Ovie, that some one like that, the team would have won @ least 1 Cup.




It was supposed to be Nash, who it's fair to say was not the game breaker the Rangers thought he was.
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Vua
Posted 2019-04-19 7:38 PM (#724776 - in reply to #724753)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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itsmcilrathtime - 2019-04-19 7:28 AM

Then again, well over half this board watches hockey with their eyes closed. Every coach this team has never does any wrong with evaluating our prospects. AV was a genius to certain members of this board. All that dumbass wanted was smaller, softer, puck moving defenseman. So guys like McIlrath and Graves were worthless. Just like McQuaid and Lindgren would have been to him. Yet, it took people on this board years to get a clue that he was an imbecile. Just like they don't get that this isn't Lou in the clutch and grab era. He hasn't done crap for over a decade until this year. The only thing he did was hire a top coach. The talent on the Islanders is not impressive at all. What talent they have was already there before they got there. It speaks volumes about how dumb some of the posters on this board still are. This old fart hasn't done dick in 10 years, his team has one good series and now half this board is sucking him off. Gorton is a completely superior GM at this point. He basically has stocked the farm beyond belief in less than 3 years from the stupidity of the tools before him depleting it.


Who here says a coach does no wrong? Who here thought AV was a genius? Not a single person I've read here. It's hilarious how you try knock down other people to make yourself look good. You make stuff about about people that don't exist to try and make yourself smart. It doesn't work. We all know how dumb you are and that you have no clue. Just stop already loser. Try going to another forum to show off your genius, we all know you've never gotten a single prospect prediction right.
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Quinn # 1
Posted 2019-04-20 6:46 AM (#724786 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Are we really blaming the coach for McIlrath being terrible? Come on now. Let's just say you were wrong on him, and move on. Everyone makes mistakes, and that was one.

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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2019-04-20 2:54 PM (#724793 - in reply to #724773)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


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Rranger - 2019-04-19 6:39 PM

LeetchyMrRanger - 2019-04-19 1:36 PM

Av-merican - 2019-04-15 5:38 PM

Mikey Red - 2019-04-10 6:53 PM

If Devils tell me they are taking Kakko...Maybe sell the 2 to Colorado for the 4 (Cozens) and the 16?


Avs would do that for sure, Rangers for sure should NOT do that.

The Rangers need a superstar, Kaako has by far the best chance of being that superstar, don't sell that off for a guy like Cozens or Dach who will no doubt be a very good player, but doesn't project to be a gamebreaker.


'The Rangers need a superstar' -> Yep, this is what was missing from all those good teams. If they had that Kane, that Ovie, that some one like that, the team would have won @ least 1 Cup.



It was supposed to be Nash, who it's fair to say was not the game breaker the Rangers thought he was.


Yep, that's true.
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rjpny75
Posted 2019-04-30 9:33 AM (#725059 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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Kinda cool watching this happen on camera vs. behind completely closed doors.

Commissioner Bettman draws lottery for 2019 NHL Draft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlLLO5lPsPY

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robstones
Posted 2019-04-30 5:30 PM (#725072 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



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Imagine

Panarin Zibanejad Buchnevich
Kreider Chytil Kakko
Kravtsov Howden Strome
Lemieux Andersson Fast

Skjei Subban/Trouba
Staal Fox
Hajek DeAngelo
Lindgren

Lundqvist
Georgiev
Shestyorkin

.... Or something....

IMAGINE IT!!!!
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Mikey Red
Posted 2019-04-30 6:00 PM (#725073 - in reply to #725072)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


Legend

Posts: 20381
10000
Location: AV is gone
robstones - 2019-04-30 7:30 PM

Imagine

Panarin Zibanejad Buchnevich
Kreider Chytil Kakko
Kravtsov Howden Strome
Lemieux Andersson Fast

Skjei Subban/Trouba
Staal Fox
Hajek DeAngelo
Lindgren

Lundqvist
Georgiev
Shestyorkin

.... Or something....

IMAGINE IT!!!!
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sureshore
Posted 2019-05-02 3:04 PM (#725165 - in reply to #725072)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


All-Star

Posts: 1331
1000
robstones - 2019-04-30 7:30 PM

Imagine

Panarin Zibanejad Buchnevich
Kreider Chytil Kakko
Kravtsov Howden Strome
Lemieux Andersson Fast

Skjei Subban/Trouba
Staal Fox
Hajek DeAngelo
Lindgren

Lundqvist
Georgiev
Shestyorkin

.... Or something....

IMAGINE IT!!!!
Imagine how Staal makes another prospect look ordinary or worse being paired with him
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rjpny75
Posted 2019-05-03 2:07 PM (#725190 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



Rookie

Posts: 241
50
Location: USA
Who is the one person who voted to trade the pick on the main OTG page? If the Rangers do that, it will be more of an uproar than the Giants keeping their pick and taking Jones with it!
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robstones
Posted 2019-05-03 5:33 PM (#725201 - in reply to #725165)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods



Legend

Posts: 13207
10000
Location: New Jersey
sureshore - 2019-05-02 5:04 PM

robstones - 2019-04-30 7:30 PM

Imagine

Panarin Zibanejad Buchnevich
Kreider Chytil Kakko
Kravtsov Howden Strome
Lemieux Andersson Fast

Skjei Subban/Trouba
Staal Fox
Hajek DeAngelo
Lindgren

Lundqvist
Georgiev
Shestyorkin

.... Or something....

IMAGINE IT!!!!
Imagine how Staal makes another prospect look ordinary or worse being paired with him


Staal had a solid year
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Rranger
Posted 2019-05-05 9:02 AM (#725286 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


MVP

Posts: 6706
5000
Out of Staal, Shattenkirk, and Smith I'd punt Shattenkirk first, Smith second, and keep Staal around until the younger players like Lindgren, Hajek and Fox were established. Or a better veteran option became available.
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Quinn # 1
Posted 2019-05-05 9:25 AM (#725287 - in reply to #724277)
Subject: Re: Thank you hockey gods


Prospect

Posts: 37
0
Personally, I would get rid of the one I can get rid of with the least "return damage" (meaning eating salary or taking back a bad contract). I wouldn't think much deeper unless all are the same type of take back. I would be surprised if all 3 are here at the start of the season, I think one will be gone.


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