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RANGERNUT
Posted 2017-09-12 10:44 AM (#679933 - in reply to #679930)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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concust - 2017-09-12 7:05 AM

I think you try the trade route instead of an offer sheet. Offer sheets sound pretty sexy until someone wants to do it to your RFA. That's why they're relatively rare in the league - what goes around comes around. You don't want to be taking a hard line in negotiations with, say, Buchnevich, hoping he'll come down from his demands, and then Detroit comes in and offer sheets him and you get a second round pick as compensation. As a GM you have to work with these people every day. Don't want to burn bridges unless you know your own timer is about to go off.

Now once you open that door to a trade, his value will be dictated by what others are willing to give up for him, not what an offer sheet would return. Every team in the league would give up a second and a depth defenseman to get him at $2.5m so that's not going to work. Remember, even if he goes to the KHL, the Wings still retain his NHL rights. Once they trade him he's gone.

He's dynamic young center, sure, but he scored about as much as Vesey did last year (in fewer games). I don't mind that there's potential for improvement there. I'd look to trade from a position of strength (young defensemen) instead. Personally I'd see if they want DeAngelo straight up. We have a number of young defensemen on the bubble, and we need centers. A highly talented ex-first rounder on an ELC should be appealing. That would make the Stepan-Raanta deal make more sense also, getting a 23 year old Center back versus a defenseman. Your defense still looks like McD-Shattenkirk, Skjei-Smith, Staal-Pionk/Bereglazov/Graves, even if Holden's gone. So you still have decent depth with your young defensemen.

Then up front you have Zbad Hayes Athanasiou and then one of Andersson, Desharnais, Nieves as your 4C. You now have legitimate top-9 NHL level depth and a 4C spot where a kid can gain experience, or if they're not ready, you plug in Desharnais.



I don't disagree although the problem with your approach is Detroit would need to sign him to a deal before they can trade him and there in lay's the issue.
They technically don't have the cap space to sign him to a deal he would entertain, The wings are offering 2 Yrs at 1.9 Mill. The KHL offer is around 3 Mil for 1 yr

So how do we get it done ?

Edited by RANGERNUT 2017-09-12 11:37 AM
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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-09-12 11:43 AM (#679934 - in reply to #679933)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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RANGERNUT - 2017-09-12 12:44 PM

concust - 2017-09-12 7:05 AM

I think you try the trade route instead of an offer sheet. Offer sheets sound pretty sexy until someone wants to do it to your RFA. That's why they're relatively rare in the league - what goes around comes around. You don't want to be taking a hard line in negotiations with, say, Buchnevich, hoping he'll come down from his demands, and then Detroit comes in and offer sheets him and you get a second round pick as compensation. As a GM you have to work with these people every day. Don't want to burn bridges unless you know your own timer is about to go off.

Now once you open that door to a trade, his value will be dictated by what others are willing to give up for him, not what an offer sheet would return. Every team in the league would give up a second and a depth defenseman to get him at $2.5m so that's not going to work. Remember, even if he goes to the KHL, the Wings still retain his NHL rights. Once they trade him he's gone.

He's dynamic young center, sure, but he scored about as much as Vesey did last year (in fewer games). I don't mind that there's potential for improvement there. I'd look to trade from a position of strength (young defensemen) instead. Personally I'd see if they want DeAngelo straight up. We have a number of young defensemen on the bubble, and we need centers. A highly talented ex-first rounder on an ELC should be appealing. That would make the Stepan-Raanta deal make more sense also, getting a 23 year old Center back versus a defenseman. Your defense still looks like McD-Shattenkirk, Skjei-Smith, Staal-Pionk/Bereglazov/Graves, even if Holden's gone. So you still have decent depth with your young defensemen.

Then up front you have Zbad Hayes Athanasiou and then one of Andersson, Desharnais, Nieves as your 4C. You now have legitimate top-9 NHL level depth and a 4C spot where a kid can gain experience, or if they're not ready, you plug in Desharnais.



I don't disagree although the problem with your approach is Detroit would need to sign him to a deal before they can trade him and there in lay's the issue.
They technically don't have the cap space to sign him to a deal he would entertain, The wings are offering 2 Yrs at 1.9 Mill. The KHL offer is around 3 Mil for 1 yr

So how do we get it done ?
Can't they use the 10% overage? Deal would have to be completed by opening day.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-09-12 7:16 PM (#679953 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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Wahoos 2 innings away from 20 in a row
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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-09-12 7:43 PM (#679954 - in reply to #679953)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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Mikey Red - 2017-09-12 9:16 PM

Wahoos 2 innings away from 20 in a row


And the Tribe just keep on scalping.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-09-12 7:51 PM (#679955 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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Very impressive streak...Hopefully they dont pull an LA Dodgers
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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-09-12 7:59 PM (#679956 - in reply to #679955)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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Mikey Red - 2017-09-12 9:51 PM

Very impressive streak...Hopefully they dont pull an LA Dodgers


They had theirs in the beginning of the year.
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Rranger
Posted 2017-09-12 9:49 PM (#679957 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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The esteemed Ken Holland has Detroit in cap hell.
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naf regnar
Posted 2017-09-13 1:59 AM (#679963 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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Sign the Indians to play on MSG ice.
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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-09-13 6:17 AM (#679965 - in reply to #679963)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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naf regnar - 2017-09-13 3:59 AM

Sign the Indians to play on MSG ice.


It would turn into a swimming pool. They're that hot.
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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-09-13 9:37 PM (#679983 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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And the Clevejins set AL record....
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-09-13 9:39 PM (#679984 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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21 in a row...call the fire dept!
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RANGERNUT
Posted 2017-09-14 4:00 AM (#679986 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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Can we keep the thread focused on the New York Rangers, there must be a baseball forum somewhere. This is annoying for those of us that really don't follow baseball and come here to talk New York Rangers Hockey.

calling all Mod's .... delete , delete , delete .....
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sureshore
Posted 2017-09-14 5:55 AM (#679987 - in reply to #679986)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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RANGERNUT - 2017-09-14 6:00 AM

Can we keep the thread focused on the New York Rangers, there must be a baseball forum somewhere. This is annoying for those of us that really don't follow baseball and come here to talk New York Rangers Hockey.

calling all Mod's .... delete , delete , delete .....


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concust
Posted 2017-09-14 6:47 AM (#679988 - in reply to #679933)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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RANGERNUT - 2017-09-12 11:44 AM

I don't disagree although the problem with your approach is Detroit would need to sign him to a deal before they can trade him and there in lay's the issue.
They technically don't have the cap space to sign him to a deal he would entertain, The wings are offering 2 Yrs at 1.9 Mill. The KHL offer is around 3 Mil for 1 yr

So how do we get it done ?


The Rangers currently have permission to talk to Athanasiou's camp, since he's an RFA. Agree in principle to a deal with his agent, then make the transaction with Detroit, and then sign him after you acquire him.

Or I believe Mj is right, he should fit under the 10% offseason allowance too. At that point we'd have to rid ourselves of Holden (which I think is going to happen sooner or later anyway)
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RANGERNUT
Posted 2017-09-14 8:10 AM (#679991 - in reply to #679988)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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concust - 2017-09-14 6:47 AM

RANGERNUT - 2017-09-12 11:44 AM

I don't disagree although the problem with your approach is Detroit would need to sign him to a deal before they can trade him and there in lay's the issue.
They technically don't have the cap space to sign him to a deal he would entertain, The wings are offering 2 Yrs at 1.9 Mill. The KHL offer is around 3 Mil for 1 yr

So how do we get it done ?


The Rangers currently have permission to talk to Athanasiou's camp, since he's an RFA. Agree in principle to a deal with his agent, then make the transaction with Detroit, and then sign him after you acquire him.

Or I believe Mj is right, he should fit under the 10% offseason allowance too. At that point we'd have to rid ourselves of Holden (which I think is going to happen sooner or later anyway)


So what are we waiting for? seems to me this kid is the hottest commodity out there. I look up down the market and there is really no better option at center than this kid. If I'm the Rangers brass, I get on the phone and do all I can, One issue is the Wings have a log jam on D and really don't have any interest in dealing for another one so who do we dangle in a potential trade deal.
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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-09-14 8:14 AM (#679992 - in reply to #679986)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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RANGERNUT - 2017-09-14 6:00 AM

calling all Mod's .... delete , delete , delete .....


I think that's rather harsh considering for days on end no one else posted.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-09-14 8:18 AM (#679993 - in reply to #679986)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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RANGERNUT - 2017-09-14 4:00 AM

Can we keep the thread focused on the New York Rangers, there must be a baseball forum somewhere. This is annoying for those of us that really don't follow baseball and come here to talk New York Rangers Hockey.

calling all Mod's .... delete , delete , delete .....

How about saying Thank You...for us coming in here and keeping the page going in the middle of the Summer
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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-09-14 8:18 AM (#679994 - in reply to #679988)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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concust - 2017-09-14 8:47 AM

RANGERNUT - 2017-09-12 11:44 AM

I don't disagree although the problem with your approach is Detroit would need to sign him to a deal before they can trade him and there in lay's the issue.
They technically don't have the cap space to sign him to a deal he would entertain, The wings are offering 2 Yrs at 1.9 Mill. The KHL offer is around 3 Mil for 1 yr

So how do we get it done ?


The Rangers currently have permission to talk to Athanasiou's camp, since he's an RFA. Agree in principle to a deal with his agent, then make the transaction with Detroit, and then sign him after you acquire him.

Or I believe Mj is right, he should fit under the 10% offseason allowance too. At that point we'd have to rid ourselves of Holden (which I think is going to happen sooner or later anyway)
Right now, Detroit is about $3.5M over....which would leave them with about $3.5M to make the deal...if they come in under $3, Rangers are fine as they have $3M in cap space....That would leave them the luxury (HA HA HA HA HA) of using Holden in a more advantageous deal.
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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-09-14 8:20 AM (#679996 - in reply to #679991)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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RANGERNUT - 2017-09-14 10:10 AM

concust - 2017-09-14 6:47 AM

RANGERNUT - 2017-09-12 11:44 AM

I don't disagree although the problem with your approach is Detroit would need to sign him to a deal before they can trade him and there in lay's the issue.
They technically don't have the cap space to sign him to a deal he would entertain, The wings are offering 2 Yrs at 1.9 Mill. The KHL offer is around 3 Mil for 1 yr

So how do we get it done ?


The Rangers currently have permission to talk to Athanasiou's camp, since he's an RFA. Agree in principle to a deal with his agent, then make the transaction with Detroit, and then sign him after you acquire him.

Or I believe Mj is right, he should fit under the 10% offseason allowance too. At that point we'd have to rid ourselves of Holden (which I think is going to happen sooner or later anyway)


So what are we waiting for? seems to me this kid is the hottest commodity out there. I look up down the market and there is really no better option at center than this kid. If I'm the Rangers brass, I get on the phone and do all I can, One issue is the Wings have a log jam on D and really don't have any interest in dealing for another one so who do we dangle in a potential trade deal.
I would think a mid-level forward prospect would seal the deal.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-09-14 8:20 AM (#679997 - in reply to #679991)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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RANGERNUT - 2017-09-14 8:10 AM

concust - 2017-09-14 6:47 AM

RANGERNUT - 2017-09-12 11:44 AM

I don't disagree although the problem with your approach is Detroit would need to sign him to a deal before they can trade him and there in lay's the issue.
They technically don't have the cap space to sign him to a deal he would entertain, The wings are offering 2 Yrs at 1.9 Mill. The KHL offer is around 3 Mil for 1 yr

So how do we get it done ?


The Rangers currently have permission to talk to Athanasiou's camp, since he's an RFA. Agree in principle to a deal with his agent, then make the transaction with Detroit, and then sign him after you acquire him.

Or I believe Mj is right, he should fit under the 10% offseason allowance too. At that point we'd have to rid ourselves of Holden (which I think is going to happen sooner or later anyway)


So what are we waiting for? seems to me this kid is the hottest commodity out there. I look up down the market and there is really no better option at center than this kid. If I'm the Rangers brass, I get on the phone and do all I can, One issue is the Wings have a log jam on D and really don't have any interest in dealing for another one so who do we dangle in a potential trade deal.

Gropp and a pick
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-09-14 8:29 AM (#679998 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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Gropp needs to have an meaningful camp....He is 21...He needs to be a top 6 forward and make an impact at Hartford
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2017-09-14 8:47 AM (#679999 - in reply to #679997)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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Gropp and a pick. Fail on every level. Gropp is exactly forward this team needs more of. A forward that can actually beat a goalie from 20 feet out with no screen with his shot. Instead of the pop gun shots our forwards have right now. Also, your Detroit player doesn't take draws. So I doubt he's a center.
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concust
Posted 2017-09-14 9:00 AM (#680000 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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He played a lot on Larkin's wing because the Wings have a glut of center, and his speed makes him the most suited of the candidates to shift to wing. He's played center up until he hit the logjam with the Wings, and has said he's more comfortable in the middle.

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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-09-14 9:02 AM (#680001 - in reply to #679999)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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itsmcilrathtime - 2017-09-14 8:47 AM

Gropp and a pick. Fail on every level. Gropp is exactly forward this team needs more of. A forward that can actually beat a goalie from 20 feet out with no screen with his shot. Instead of the pop gun shots our forwards have right now. Also, your Detroit player doesn't take draws. So I doubt he's a center.

Ath is a big boy who can move...and has already made it to the NHL....Gropp is 21 and we dont know yet. Ath is 23? you make that deal
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concust
Posted 2017-09-14 9:12 AM (#680002 - in reply to #679991)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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RANGERNUT - 2017-09-14 9:10 AM

concust - 2017-09-14 6:47 AM

RANGERNUT - 2017-09-12 11:44 AM

I don't disagree although the problem with your approach is Detroit would need to sign him to a deal before they can trade him and there in lay's the issue.
They technically don't have the cap space to sign him to a deal he would entertain, The wings are offering 2 Yrs at 1.9 Mill. The KHL offer is around 3 Mil for 1 yr

So how do we get it done ?


The Rangers currently have permission to talk to Athanasiou's camp, since he's an RFA. Agree in principle to a deal with his agent, then make the transaction with Detroit, and then sign him after you acquire him.

Or I believe Mj is right, he should fit under the 10% offseason allowance too. At that point we'd have to rid ourselves of Holden (which I think is going to happen sooner or later anyway)


So what are we waiting for? seems to me this kid is the hottest commodity out there. I look up down the market and there is really no better option at center than this kid. If I'm the Rangers brass, I get on the phone and do all I can, One issue is the Wings have a log jam on D and really don't have any interest in dealing for another one so who do we dangle in a potential trade deal.


You're right, Detroit has a lot of young D they want to give playing time to, and that's one reason they were fine with getting rid of Smith. Unfortunately I don't think we have a forward that I'd be willing to part with, and they're not going to let him go for a B prospect and a second round pick. So unless we're willing to give up a first round pick (no) then I'd say there's probably not a realistic trade to be made.

In the end I am 99% sure this KHL thing is just him getting leverage. I bet he signs with the Wings, for a little under what he was asking for. The Wings will probably have to make some other moves in order to make it work, but they'll do that because they want to build around this kid, not trade him away. It's easier to trade away a bottom 6 forward or a depth defenseman, and make the cap room, than it is to find another cost-controlled 23 year old scoring forward.

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concust
Posted 2017-09-14 9:24 AM (#680003 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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I'm trying to think of a list of players who could have played in the NHL but instead decided to go play in the KHL. I can only think of Jagr and Kovalchuk. Can anyone think of more?

Or for that matter, a Canadian who chose to play in the KHL instead of a promising NHL career? Not saying it couldn't happen... just that it never has before.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-09-14 9:59 AM (#680004 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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Medical testing and physicals today...Roster has 54 invitees...They hit the ice Friday ...good luck kid Rangers that we are counting on to be on the big team soon!
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Vua
Posted 2017-09-14 11:08 AM (#680007 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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I'd rather let the cap space accumulate throughout the year for a chance on improving our center position instead of wasting cap space for another 3rd or 4th line center. Hayes shouldn't be #2. You need someone ahead of him and trading to get someone to slot behind him is a waste of assets.
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Fish
Posted 2017-09-14 3:43 PM (#680015 - in reply to #680003)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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concust - 2017-09-14 8:24 AM

I'm trying to think of a list of players who could have played in the NHL but instead decided to go play in the KHL. I can only think of Jagr and Kovalchuk. Can anyone think of more?

Or for that matter, a Canadian who chose to play in the KHL instead of a promising NHL career? Not saying it couldn't happen... just that it never has before.


Radulov...
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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-09-14 4:47 PM (#680016 - in reply to #680015)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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There are a few...I did a search and came upon an article somewhere about 10 players who should never have left NHL for KHL....some recognizable names -- and some young players. I can try to find it again if anyone is interested.
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2017-09-15 2:23 AM (#680028 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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One of the biggest problems with the Rangers offense is that the forwards don't shoot well. Gropp does. You don't trade him. Nash's shot has turned into a pop gun. Hayes has no clue how to shoot. Kreider rarely ever hits the net. If the Rangers are going to go out and make a trade, I'd like to see them go get Nichushkin from the Stars who has no interest in playing for them. At this point I don't think you would have to give up that much and you could trade from strength in defense and goaltending which is what the Stars need. Something like Holden, Huska and Reunanen would most likely get it done. Bishop is 30. Honestly, I don't see him doing much on the Stars. Holden would be a nice vet for them to add this year. Huska and Reunanen are both promising. Especially Huska. Nichushkin at this point is a lost cause for Dalls. About the only chance you have of getting him to the NHL is New York with a large Russian community.
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RANGERNUT
Posted 2017-09-15 4:47 AM (#680029 - in reply to #680028)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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itsmcilrathtime - 2017-09-15 2:23 AM

One of the biggest problems with the Rangers offense is that the forwards don't shoot well. Gropp does. You don't trade him. Nash's shot has turned into a pop gun. Hayes has no clue how to shoot. Kreider rarely ever hits the net. If the Rangers are going to go out and make a trade, I'd like to see them go get Nichushkin from the Stars who has no interest in playing for them. At this point I don't think you would have to give up that much and you could trade from strength in defense and goaltending which is what the Stars need. Something like Holden, Huska and Reunanen would most likely get it done. Bishop is 30. Honestly, I don't see him doing much on the Stars. Holden would be a nice vet for them to add this year. Huska and Reunanen are both promising. Especially Huska. Nichushkin at this point is a lost cause for Dalls. About the only chance you have of getting him to the NHL is New York with a large Russian community.


there are two problems with your thought:

1) he is a winger, we need center iceman (period)

and then there is this ..yikes !

2) In a published report with Igor Rabiner in March, Nichushkin said he does not believe the Stars coaches trust him. Russian reporter Igor Oronko Tweeted Monday: "Per Source, Nichushkin doesn't want to play for Lindy Ruff."


Edited by RANGERNUT 2017-09-15 4:48 AM
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concust
Posted 2017-09-15 7:02 AM (#680031 - in reply to #680028)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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itsmcilrathtime - 2017-09-15 3:23 AM

One of the biggest problems with the Rangers offense is that the forwards don't shoot well. Gropp does. You don't trade him. Nash's shot has turned into a pop gun. Hayes has no clue how to shoot. Kreider rarely ever hits the net. If the Rangers are going to go out and make a trade, I'd like to see them go get Nichushkin from the Stars who has no interest in playing for them. At this point I don't think you would have to give up that much and you could trade from strength in defense and goaltending which is what the Stars need. Something like Holden, Huska and Reunanen would most likely get it done. Bishop is 30. Honestly, I don't see him doing much on the Stars. Holden would be a nice vet for them to add this year. Huska and Reunanen are both promising. Especially Huska. Nichushkin at this point is a lost cause for Dalls. About the only chance you have of getting him to the NHL is New York with a large Russian community.


Actually nichushkin does want to play for the Stars, he doesn't want to play for Ruff. His issue during his two years there was that the coaching staff, Ruff specifically, didn't trust him enough and he was disappointed with his usage. I lived in a Dallas market the two years he was there and I tend to agree with him. The Stars were actually fine with him leaving, as they figured he could develop a bit in a men's league and he may lose some of the ego. He's reportedly coming back to the Stars after his KHL deal is done (this year).
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concust
Posted 2017-09-15 7:09 AM (#680032 - in reply to #680016)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...



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Mjolnir - 2017-09-14 5:47 PM

There are a few...I did a search and came upon an article somewhere about 10 players who should never have left NHL for KHL....some recognizable names -- and some young players. I can try to find it again if anyone is interested.


I found a couple of lists, and yes there are more players than I initially recalled. Of course the lists are also heavy with Russians, who return to the KHL to be closer to home and potentially be a star rather than a depth NHL player.

I couldn't find anyone on the lists who was Canadian/American and an NHL regular, who went to the KHL. Ray Emery is probably the closest one but even at that time he was a bubble player. Just leads me to believe that Anathasiou's KHL threat is almost certainly a bluff.
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Spider3WideBanana
Posted 2017-09-16 2:04 PM (#680080 - in reply to #677153)
Subject: Re: Latest NYR rumors...


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What about Backes for Staal straight up? Two bad contracts, theoretically fills a need on both teams?
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