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TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell
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Rranger
Posted 2017-12-05 5:54 PM (#689349 - in reply to #689300)
Subject: Re: Cracknell on waivers


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concust - 2017-12-05 6:44 AM

Mjolnir - 2017-11-30 11:32 AM

concust - 2017-10-24 7:38 PM



But before I go and celebrate #FireAV there's the question of who replaces him. Ruff, as I have pointed out, is not a good coach. Plus he was brought in to replace Beukeboom as our defensive coach, and we are at the bottom of the league in almost all defensive and PK categories. So why promote a guy who hasn't even done the job he was brought in to do?




You trying doing that job when your head coach prefers the "Helter Skelter" method of defending. AV made it clear in the offseason that they would be no changes to the defensive scheme. That's a recipe for disaster no matter who's "supposedly" the defensive coach.


Not going to give AV a pass here either, but there is no evidence that Ruff is a good defensive coach. Of course it's up to the head coach to set the general defensive scheme. So let's look at Ruff's last 6 seasons as a head coach, where he was the one that set the defensive scheme:

Team ranking, goals against:

2016-17: 29th (Dallas)
2015-16: 20th (Dallas)
2014-15: 26th (Dallas)
2013-14: 17th (Dallas)
2012-13: 23rd (Buffalo)
2011-12: 18th (Buffalo)

His best defensive season in the past 6 years is when he was two spots off the median. I don't know where this idea that Ruff is a good defensive coach, or even a good coach in general, comes from, but neither is true. At least AV has a decent HC record and successes to point to, Ruff has none of those.

I'm totally with most of you who want AV gone but Ruff is not a better option, just a different one. (In fact I think he's probably a worse head coach than AV)







So based on your hypothesis that the number of goals against is the only factor in rating a coaches defensive coaching ability, and overall ability we must annoint Glen Sather the greatest offensive hockey coach ever, based on his record breaking Oiler teams.
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concust
Posted 2017-12-06 8:58 AM (#689528 - in reply to #689349)
Subject: Re: Cracknell on waivers



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Rranger - 2017-12-05 6:54 PM

concust - 2017-12-05 6:44 AM

Mjolnir - 2017-11-30 11:32 AM

concust - 2017-10-24 7:38 PM



But before I go and celebrate #FireAV there's the question of who replaces him. Ruff, as I have pointed out, is not a good coach. Plus he was brought in to replace Beukeboom as our defensive coach, and we are at the bottom of the league in almost all defensive and PK categories. So why promote a guy who hasn't even done the job he was brought in to do?




You trying doing that job when your head coach prefers the "Helter Skelter" method of defending. AV made it clear in the offseason that they would be no changes to the defensive scheme. That's a recipe for disaster no matter who's "supposedly" the defensive coach.


Not going to give AV a pass here either, but there is no evidence that Ruff is a good defensive coach. Of course it's up to the head coach to set the general defensive scheme. So let's look at Ruff's last 6 seasons as a head coach, where he was the one that set the defensive scheme:

Team ranking, goals against:

2016-17: 29th (Dallas)
2015-16: 20th (Dallas)
2014-15: 26th (Dallas)
2013-14: 17th (Dallas)
2012-13: 23rd (Buffalo)
2011-12: 18th (Buffalo)

His best defensive season in the past 6 years is when he was two spots off the median. I don't know where this idea that Ruff is a good defensive coach, or even a good coach in general, comes from, but neither is true. At least AV has a decent HC record and successes to point to, Ruff has none of those.

I'm totally with most of you who want AV gone but Ruff is not a better option, just a different one. (In fact I think he's probably a worse head coach than AV)







So based on your hypothesis that the number of goals against is the only factor in rating a coaches defensive coaching ability, and overall ability we must annoint Glen Sather the greatest offensive hockey coach ever, based on his record breaking Oiler teams.




Never said there is only one factor, nor did I say this is the only one that's relevant. A team's GA over the course of 6 years, and how it relates to the rest of the league, seems like a good starting point.

I'm happy to consider any evidence to the contrary if you'd like to present it - shot metrics, xGA, etc, to further the debate and discussion, but my guess is you don't have anything aside from simply trying to be contrarian.




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Rranger
Posted 2017-12-06 9:34 AM (#689529 - in reply to #689528)
Subject: Re: Cracknell on waivers


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concust - 2017-12-06 7:58 AM

Rranger - 2017-12-05 6:54 PM

concust - 2017-12-05 6:44 AM

Mjolnir - 2017-11-30 11:32 AM

concust - 2017-10-24 7:38 PM



But before I go and celebrate #FireAV there's the question of who replaces him. Ruff, as I have pointed out, is not a good coach. Plus he was brought in to replace Beukeboom as our defensive coach, and we are at the bottom of the league in almost all defensive and PK categories. So why promote a guy who hasn't even done the job he was brought in to do?




You trying doing that job when your head coach prefers the "Helter Skelter" method of defending. AV made it clear in the offseason that they would be no changes to the defensive scheme. That's a recipe for disaster no matter who's "supposedly" the defensive coach.


Not going to give AV a pass here either, but there is no evidence that Ruff is a good defensive coach. Of course it's up to the head coach to set the general defensive scheme. So let's look at Ruff's last 6 seasons as a head coach, where he was the one that set the defensive scheme:

Team ranking, goals against:

2016-17: 29th (Dallas)
2015-16: 20th (Dallas)
2014-15: 26th (Dallas)
2013-14: 17th (Dallas)
2012-13: 23rd (Buffalo)
2011-12: 18th (Buffalo)

His best defensive season in the past 6 years is when he was two spots off the median. I don't know where this idea that Ruff is a good defensive coach, or even a good coach in general, comes from, but neither is true. At least AV has a decent HC record and successes to point to, Ruff has none of those.

I'm totally with most of you who want AV gone but Ruff is not a better option, just a different one. (In fact I think he's probably a worse head coach than AV)







So based on your hypothesis that the number of goals against is the only factor in rating a coaches defensive coaching ability, and overall ability we must annoint Glen Sather the greatest offensive hockey coach ever, based on his record breaking Oiler teams.




Never said there is only one factor, nor did I say this is the only one that's relevant. A team's GA over the course of 6 years, and how it relates to the rest of the league, seems like a good starting point.

I'm happy to consider any evidence to the contrary if you'd like to present it - shot metrics, xGA, etc, to further the debate and discussion, but my guess is you don't have anything aside from simply trying to be contrarian.









You painted Ruff with your poor coach brush, you should substantiate it, with some actual evidence instead of the weak claim you made. . The Sather reference based on comparable starting point, shows how silly your point was. I'm not advocating Ruff for Vigneault but real is real. Ruffs last seasons in Buffalo were coaching a Buffalo team in ownership transition, then onto a Dallas team with a poor group of defenseman and even worse goalies. And they still have a poor group of defensemen and goalies. Certainly when compared to the Rangers. I'm not a contrarian just a realist. Talent is the single defining difference in Coaching abilities in any league.. Maybe you think the Sabres and Dallas were on a equal talent level with the Rangers but you would be alone.

Edited by Rranger 2017-12-06 6:23 PM
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-06 10:56 AM (#689532 - in reply to #689300)
Subject: Re: Cracknell on waivers


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concust - 2017-12-05 7:44 AM

Mjolnir - 2017-11-30 11:32 AM

concust - 2017-10-24 7:38 PM



But before I go and celebrate #FireAV there's the question of who replaces him. Ruff, as I have pointed out, is not a good coach. Plus he was brought in to replace Beukeboom as our defensive coach, and we are at the bottom of the league in almost all defensive and PK categories. So why promote a guy who hasn't even done the job he was brought in to do?




You trying doing that job when your head coach prefers the "Helter Skelter" method of defending. AV made it clear in the offseason that they would be no changes to the defensive scheme. That's a recipe for disaster no matter who's "supposedly" the defensive coach.


Not going to give AV a pass here either, but there is no evidence that Ruff is a good defensive coach. Of course it's up to the head coach to set the general defensive scheme. So let's look at Ruff's last 6 seasons as a head coach, where he was the one that set the defensive scheme:

Team ranking, goals against:

2016-17: 29th (Dallas)
2015-16: 20th (Dallas)
2014-15: 26th (Dallas)
2013-14: 17th (Dallas)
2012-13: 23rd (Buffalo)
2011-12: 18th (Buffalo)

His best defensive season in the past 6 years is when he was two spots off the median. I don't know where this idea that Ruff is a good defensive coach, or even a good coach in general, comes from, but neither is true. At least AV has a decent HC record and successes to point to, Ruff has none of those.

I'm totally with most of you who want AV gone but Ruff is not a better option, just a different one. (In fact I think he's probably a worse head coach than AV)




I don't think Ruff is a good replacement for AV at all, but, that being said, how can you say he was never a good coach and has no success to point to?

He got Buffalo to the finals with a payroll of about 1/2 of anyone else, and barely lost that series on a couple of what many called "bad calls". Now you may want to say Hasek carried them, and that may be true, but AV has benefitted from great goaltending throughout his whole career. Luongo, Shneider, Hank!

To say Ruff was never a good coach is just plain wrong!
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Rranger
Posted 2017-12-06 11:38 AM (#689534 - in reply to #689532)
Subject: Re: Cracknell on waivers


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Rangerjunkie - 2017-12-06 9:56 AM

concust - 2017-12-05 7:44 AM

Mjolnir - 2017-11-30 11:32 AM

concust - 2017-10-24 7:38 PM



But before I go and celebrate #FireAV there's the question of who replaces him. Ruff, as I have pointed out, is not a good coach. Plus he was brought in to replace Beukeboom as our defensive coach, and we are at the bottom of the league in almost all defensive and PK categories. So why promote a guy who hasn't even done the job he was brought in to do?




You trying doing that job when your head coach prefers the "Helter Skelter" method of defending. AV made it clear in the offseason that they would be no changes to the defensive scheme. That's a recipe for disaster no matter who's "supposedly" the defensive coach.


Not going to give AV a pass here either, but there is no evidence that Ruff is a good defensive coach. Of course it's up to the head coach to set the general defensive scheme. So let's look at Ruff's last 6 seasons as a head coach, where he was the one that set the defensive scheme:

Team ranking, goals against:

2016-17: 29th (Dallas)
2015-16: 20th (Dallas)
2014-15: 26th (Dallas)
2013-14: 17th (Dallas)
2012-13: 23rd (Buffalo)
2011-12: 18th (Buffalo)

His best defensive season in the past 6 years is when he was two spots off the median. I don't know where this idea that Ruff is a good defensive coach, or even a good coach in general, comes from, but neither is true. At least AV has a decent HC record and successes to point to, Ruff has none of those.

I'm totally with most of you who want AV gone but Ruff is not a better option, just a different one. (In fact I think he's probably a worse head coach than AV)




I don't think Ruff is a good replacement for AV at all, but, that being said, how can you say he was never a good coach and has no success to point to?

He got Buffalo to the finals with a payroll of about 1/2 of anyone else, and barely lost that series on a couple of what many called "bad calls". Now you may want to say Hasek carried them, and that may be true, but AV has benefitted from great goaltending throughout his whole career. Luongo, Shneider, Hank!

To say Ruff was never a good coach is just plain wrong!








Careful lest you be labelled a contrarian also.
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-06 12:09 PM (#689536 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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I would think the majority of people would say Ruff was a good coach, you usually don't last as long as he did if you weren't !

So, it would be contrarian to think otherwise!!
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concust
Posted 2017-12-06 2:06 PM (#689537 - in reply to #689532)
Subject: Re: Cracknell on waivers



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Rangerjunkie - 2017-12-06 11:56 AM

I don't think Ruff is a good replacement for AV at all, but, that being said, how can you say he was never a good coach and has no success to point to?

He got Buffalo to the finals with a payroll of about 1/2 of anyone else, and barely lost that series on a couple of what many called "bad calls". Now you may want to say Hasek carried them, and that may be true, but AV has benefitted from great goaltending throughout his whole career. Luongo, Shneider, Hank!

To say Ruff was never a good coach is just plain wrong!


Lindy Ruff:

Zero Stanley Cups
Made one SC Final (18 years ago)
Made the playoffs 2 times in the past 5 years
Made the playoffs 4 times in the past 10 years
Made the playoffs 6 times in the past 15 years

To me, one successful season does not a coach make. He's milked that finals appearance for almost 20 years now. So far that's the only piece of evidence for Ruff being a good head coach that I've seen in this thread. Can you point to him turning teams around after he's brought on board?

I'll reiterate, if you have anything else that points to him being a successful, or even a good, coach, please elaborate, we're all waiting.


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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-06 2:50 PM (#689538 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Lindy Ruff:

Zero Stanley Cups, Just like AV and hundreds of other "good coaches!
Took Buffalo, the smallest payroll in hockey to the playoffs 8 times!
Took Dallas to the playoffs for the first time in 6 years, and brought them from 6th in the central to 1st in one year.

Lets see how great some other coaches would do with no payroll.

Foolish to say he wasn't a good coach!
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-06 2:51 PM (#689539 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Got closer to the cup with small market team than AV did with the largest market team!!
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-06 2:55 PM (#689540 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Amazing how one could last 17 years as a coach in the NHL without being considered a good coach!

But like a lot of things you know better than the pros!
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robstones
Posted 2017-12-06 8:53 PM (#689541 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell



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1) The Rangers have been winning... what changes would Lindy Ruff make?

"Alright guys, now that I'm your new head coach, I want you to keep doing the things it takes to win out there"..... "Maybe get off to better starts! I know AV has been saying that, but since I'm saying it hopefully you'll execute!"

2) If you want a change in philosophy... I'm not sure Ruff is the guy to do that. The biggest criticism of this team is how soft they are.... right? Since when have Ruff teams been known for their hard hitting, aggressive, crease clearing, or any of the other things that are lacking??

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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-07 6:22 AM (#689547 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Rob, we have all said we don't think Ruff is a good replacement to coach the Rangers.

The discussion has been was he a good coach or not a good coach through his career.

Side point. His teams in Buffalo were hard hitting teams, and teams that played hard!

Edited by Rangerjunkie 2017-12-07 6:25 AM
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Vua
Posted 2017-12-07 11:10 AM (#689549 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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His teams in Buffalo had Hasek and then Miller. He's been more goalie carried than AV.
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-07 12:11 PM (#689550 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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So you rank the tandem of Hasek and Miller over Luongo, Schneider, and Lundqvist?
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-07 12:17 PM (#689551 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Maybe you didn't realize........

Hasek 389 career wins
Miller 358 career wins

Luongo 453 career wins
Hank 405 career wins

AV definitely more goalie carried
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Vua
Posted 2017-12-07 12:37 PM (#689553 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Hasek? He's the best goalie I've ever seen play. And please see shootouts and inflated win totals. And I'm in the middle of inventory so I can check games played and such now.

Edited by Vua 2017-12-07 12:41 PM
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-07 12:59 PM (#689554 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Hasek was 234 - 170 with Buffalo, thats not including OT. But 234-170 does not seem like carrying Ruff to me at all!!

Did you not see Broduer or Roy play?

I would also rank Hank over Hasek for sure. Luongo over Miller for sure
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robstones
Posted 2017-12-07 1:43 PM (#689555 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell



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Marty sucked. So overrated

Roy and Hasek were better.

Hasek made saves.... a lot of goaltending is being in the right position, and letting the puck hit you.

Hasek found the puck, and made saves using ridiculous reflexes. Unorthodox. You'd think he's down and out, but would somehow manage to make the save with athleticism. Really fun to watch.

Roy was just a brick wall.

Marty..... he was good at stick handling, so everything he did was overhyped because of his ability to score an empty netter, or spring his team mate for a breakaway. Most Losses in NHL history
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-07 2:51 PM (#689556 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Hmmm Marty Sucked.....OK!

His goaltending was overhyped because of him scoring an empty netter....Makes no sense at all!

Most losses? How about Most wins?!?!

Can understand you not liking him because of being a devil, but c'mon be real
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sureshore
Posted 2017-12-07 3:12 PM (#689558 - in reply to #689554)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Rangerjunkie - 2017-12-07 2:59 PM

Hasek was 234 - 170 with Buffalo, thats not including OT. But 234-170 does not seem like carrying Ruff to me at all!!

Did you not see Broduer or Roy play?

I would also rank Hank over Hasek for sure. Luongo over Miller for sure


Lots of experts (I'm no goalie expert but me too) rank Hasek above Brodeur and the rest. It's subjective to say who's best, but Hasek really didn't start his NHL career till he was way older than when Brodeur or Roy, so he doesn't have the accumulated numbers. He does however have one thing that goalies are always judged by -Vezina Trophies. His six are just 1 less than Roy (3) and Brodeur (4) combined so take that for what its worth. Oh - also I believe the only goalie to win TWO Hart Trophies. Neither accumulator Brodeur or Roy, nor AV goalies Lundqvist, Luongo or Schneider have a one.

That said, I wouldn't want anyone who has been alongside AV on the bench these past few years to succeed him when he is let go.

Edited by sureshore 2017-12-07 3:18 PM
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robstones
Posted 2017-12-07 3:15 PM (#689559 - in reply to #689556)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell



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Rangerjunkie - 2017-12-07 4:51 PM

Hmmm Marty Sucked.....OK!

His goaltending was overhyped because of him scoring an empty netter....Makes no sense at all!

Most losses? How about Most wins?!?!

Can understand you not liking him because of being a devil, but c'mon be real


Win and losses because he also has most games played. He had longevity, I'll give him that. He was good enough to be a starting goaltender from a teenager till he was ready to retire.... can't underestimate that.

And he played most nights.... 70+ game seasons.

So he gets most wins as a biproduct.... and most losses.

That makes him the best? I don't think so. He was absolutely overhyped because of his ability to move the puck, and make the sttetch pass.

If he couldn't do that, he would be seen as average. Instead he was overhyped.

Lucky saves. Flopping around like a fish. Not that good
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-07 3:40 PM (#689560 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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So Hasek is down and out, while Brodeur flops like a fish.

I didn't say most wins make him the best, I just countered your comment of most losses.

I don't think anyone would classify Marty as an average goaltender.
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-07 3:42 PM (#689561 - in reply to #689558)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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sureshore - 2017-12-07 3:12 PM

Rangerjunkie - 2017-12-07 2:59 PM

Hasek was 234 - 170 with Buffalo, thats not including OT. But 234-170 does not seem like carrying Ruff to me at all!!

Did you not see Broduer or Roy play?

I would also rank Hank over Hasek for sure. Luongo over Miller for sure


Lots of experts (I'm no goalie expert but me too) rank Hasek above Brodeur and the rest. It's subjective to say who's best, but Hasek really didn't start his NHL career till he was way older than when Brodeur or Roy, so he doesn't have the accumulated numbers. He does however have one thing that goalies are always judged by -Vezina Trophies. His six are just 1 less than Roy (3) and Brodeur (4) combined so take that for what its worth. Oh - also I believe the only goalie to win TWO Hart Trophies. Neither accumulator Brodeur or Roy, nor AV goalies Lundqvist, Luongo or Schneider have a one.

That said, I wouldn't want anyone who has been alongside AV on the bench these past few years to succeed him when he is let go.


I just Googled best goaltenders of all time...Looked at only 3, but all three had Marty at #1. Two of the three had Roy at #2, Hasek 3. 1 of the 3 had Hasek above Roy
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-07 3:46 PM (#689562 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Talking about goaltenders is fun..But the question that started all this was, was Ruff ever considered to be a good coach in his career?
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Vua
Posted 2017-12-07 5:16 PM (#689564 - in reply to #689562)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Rangerjunkie - 2017-12-07 3:46 PM

Talking about goaltenders is fun..But the question that started all this was, was Ruff ever considered to be a good coach in his career?


I would say there was a time he was considered a good coach. Those Buffalo teams didn't have much other than Hasek honestly. It's the reason he had to stand on his head pretty much every night. Buffalo had a pretty good defensive team, but they were forced to play that way due to their lack of offense. You have to give him credit for getting what he could from those teams. But I give more credit to the goalie. But once Ruff got some offensive talent he transitioned away from a defensive scheme and his teams weren't much different than AV's have been. Offensive heavy with an emphasis on the goalie making up for a lack of defensive play. In Dallas he didn't have the goalie to do it so they were mostly meh.

And as far as goalies go, Hasek is still the save percentage leader. Of the top 30 goalies in save percentage, only 5 started their careers before the year 2000, and 3 of those were in the latter half of the '90s. Only Brodeur at number 30 started his career around the time Hasek did and he's 29 places behind him. Remember Brodeur is closer to Ondrej Pavelec at number 50 than he is Hasek at #1. And that is only to show how ridiculous save percentage have become the last few years. For his career, in a night in night out basis, he was the best goalie I saw play. I know others have won more, but they had better team to work with. Hasek was the Sabres.
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-07 7:53 PM (#689565 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Hasek career save % 0.922

Marty career save % 0.912

Jonathon Quick has a .922, so does Cory Schneider, so does Tuukka Rask, so does Braden Holtby, do we think any of them are better than Marty?
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Vua
Posted 2017-12-07 8:56 PM (#689567 - in reply to #689565)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Rangerjunkie - 2017-12-07 7:53 PM

Hasek career save % 0.922

Marty career save % 0.912

Jonathon Quick has a .922, so does Cory Schneider, so does Tuukka Rask, so does Braden Holtby, do we think any of them are better than Marty?


Please reread what I said about save percentages becoming ridiculous and you will have answered your own question. League average has been .915 for years now. What I'm saying is Hasek was doing that before anyone else was capable of doing it. Most of Brodeur's best statistical seasons came his last few years in the league because all the goalie stats got inflated. Hasek was putting up .925-.930 in the '90s when Brodeur was putting up .905 and .910 seasons. (other that his 37 game .927 season in 96-97).

And is that Quick's save percentage this year? It sure isn't his career save percentage.
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sureshore
Posted 2017-12-08 5:59 AM (#689569 - in reply to #689561)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Rangerjunkie - 2017-12-07 5:42 PM

sureshore - 2017-12-07 3:12 PM

Rangerjunkie - 2017-12-07 2:59 PM

Hasek was 234 - 170 with Buffalo, thats not including OT. But 234-170 does not seem like carrying Ruff to me at all!!

Did you not see Broduer or Roy play?

I would also rank Hank over Hasek for sure. Luongo over Miller for sure


Lots of experts (I'm no goalie expert but me too) rank Hasek above Brodeur and the rest. It's subjective to say who's best, but Hasek really didn't start his NHL career till he was way older than when Brodeur or Roy, so he doesn't have the accumulated numbers. He does however have one thing that goalies are always judged by -Vezina Trophies. His six are just 1 less than Roy (3) and Brodeur (4) combined so take that for what its worth. Oh - also I believe the only goalie to win TWO Hart Trophies. Neither accumulator Brodeur or Roy, nor AV goalies Lundqvist, Luongo or Schneider have a one.

That said, I wouldn't want anyone who has been alongside AV on the bench these past few years to succeed him when he is let go.


I just Googled best goaltenders of all time...Looked at only 3, but all three had Marty at #1. Two of the three had Roy at #2, Hasek 3. 1 of the 3 had Hasek above Roy




lol - did you cherry pick the 3 you looked at? typed in "best goaltenders of all time" and Hasek was number 1 on the first 2 that came up (Bleacher Report and Ranker) and Roy, not Marty was #1 on the other (Hockeywriters)with Hasek #2. NHL Network, who are decidedly Canadian biased seem to be the first with Marty at #1 and even they have Hasek #2.

Do you really think I'm that stupid not to know how to google to check what you said?

Edited by sureshore 2017-12-08 6:03 AM
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-08 7:17 AM (#689570 - in reply to #689569)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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sureshore - 2017-12-08 5:59 AM

Rangerjunkie - 2017-12-07 5:42 PM

sureshore - 2017-12-07 3:12 PM

Rangerjunkie - 2017-12-07 2:59 PM

Hasek was 234 - 170 with Buffalo, thats not including OT. But 234-170 does not seem like carrying Ruff to me at all!!

Did you not see Broduer or Roy play?

I would also rank Hank over Hasek for sure. Luongo over Miller for sure


Lots of experts (I'm no goalie expert but me too) rank Hasek above Brodeur and the rest. It's subjective to say who's best, but Hasek really didn't start his NHL career till he was way older than when Brodeur or Roy, so he doesn't have the accumulated numbers. He does however have one thing that goalies are always judged by -Vezina Trophies. His six are just 1 less than Roy (3) and Brodeur (4) combined so take that for what its worth. Oh - also I believe the only goalie to win TWO Hart Trophies. Neither accumulator Brodeur or Roy, nor AV goalies Lundqvist, Luongo or Schneider have a one.

That said, I wouldn't want anyone who has been alongside AV on the bench these past few years to succeed him when he is let go.


I just Googled best goaltenders of all time...Looked at only 3, but all three had Marty at #1. Two of the three had Roy at #2, Hasek 3. 1 of the 3 had Hasek above Roy




lol - did you cherry pick the 3 you looked at? typed in "best goaltenders of all time" and Hasek was number 1 on the first 2 that came up (Bleacher Report and Ranker) and Roy, not Marty was #1 on the other (Hockeywriters)with Hasek #2. NHL Network, who are decidedly Canadian biased seem to be the first with Marty at #1 and even they have Hasek #2.

Do you really think I'm that stupid not to know how to google to check what you said?


No not all!! I do not think you're stupid.

And honestly I did not cherry pick, I just looked at the first 3. Did you cherry pick??
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-08 7:30 AM (#689571 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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I just looked at more lists and you are right, Hasek is tops on a lot of them!

Although NHL.Com doesn't list him in the top 5.

But this all started because it was said that Ruff benefitted from better goaltending than AV has. I don't see how Hasek being 234-170 with Buffalo really benefitted Ruff, as much as Luongo and Hank have benefitted AV. They both have more career wins than Hasek.
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Rranger
Posted 2017-12-08 7:41 AM (#689572 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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All the goalies mentioned were great at different times in their career. Any one of them could have beaten the other on any given day, with the deciding factor having more to do with the team in front of them. The conversation was about Ruff's coaching ability. He's a good coach, who frankly has never had the horses. You don't win in Gary's beer league without the horses.
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-08 7:51 AM (#689573 - in reply to #689572)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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Rranger - 2017-12-08 7:41 AM

All the goalies mentioned were great at different times in their career. Any one of them could have beaten the other on any given day, with the deciding factor having more to do with the team in front of them. The conversation was about Ruff's coaching ability. He's a good coach, who frankly has never had the horses. You don't win in Gary's beer league without the horses.


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mpcelo45
Posted 2017-12-08 8:24 AM (#689574 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell



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I just want to throw my hat into the ring here.

Marty Brodeur benefited from multiple things here

1. Playing every game for NJ will give you padded stats (most wins, most losses and most shutouts).
2. He played on the best defensive system in the NHL for most of his career.

On average he faced 25 shots a night, he faced 40 or more shots in a game just 31 times over his career!

124 shutouts, but only 21 of his shutouts required over 30 saves, whereas Hasek has 29 of those performances, Roberto Luongo has 26, and Tomas Vokoun has 23. Hasek also once had a 70 save shutout in the playoffs in what is statistically the best goalie performance of all time, and far and away from anything Marty ever faced.

Brodeur is the winningest goalie ever and has the most shutouts, but he’s also got the most losses and most goals against. If he only gave up so many goals and lost so many games because he played more games than anyone else, then how can you use wins and shutouts as a method to praise Brodeur? The truth- it’s impressive, but a testament to his longevity and teams, not his actual skill a goaltender.

Long story short, there is nothing tangible to suggest Brodeur was anything but a solid, durable goaltender back stopping one of the best defensive teams in recent NHL history. For as many reasons there are to place him at #1, there are just as many reasons why he’s not.
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-12-08 8:34 AM (#689575 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell


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OK!

But, was Ruff a good coach or not?
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mpcelo45
Posted 2017-12-08 9:01 AM (#689576 - in reply to #684863)
Subject: Re: TRADE: Rangers acquire Peter Holland for Adam Cracknell



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Yes he was a good coach.

He had arguably one of the best goalies in history and his best offensive players were Hecht, Drury and Afinogenov.
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