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Poll Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)
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Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)
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Mjolnir
Posted 2018-05-25 7:36 PM (#705389 - in reply to #705384)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)



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NYR # 1 - 2018-05-25 8:42 PM

I think you guys are way overvaluing these not top 3 picks. # 5 Arizona or # 7 Vancouver I don't think would cost as much as you think. Why did Zona trade # 7 last year for 6.5 mill Stepan and one year of Raanta? That doesn't seem like some monster haul that you all are talking about.

Now to be clear I am not saying the Rangers will move to 5 or 7, but I don't think it would cost as much as some think. Both Zona and Vancouver might want to keep and make those picks. Odds are no trade happens that high (I do think we could see a top 12-15 or so pick come our way), but I don't think two 1st's, a 2nd, and Name or Spooner is way too little for # 5.


Arizona hasn't made a sensible trade since they managed to dump Yandle on us. To be honest, I still think the Stepan deal was more of a cap deal for them than for actually roster players.
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Mjolnir
Posted 2018-05-25 7:43 PM (#705390 - in reply to #705385)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)



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NYR # 1 - 2018-05-25 8:54 PM

So please don't tell me that is unfair or I am being crazy with that offer. Not saying it happens, but it absolutely would be a very fair trade for Arizona.

While you might not be crazy, anyone who accepts that deal is certifiable....it's deals like this that made Gainey and Snow unemployed.
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NYR # 1
Posted 2018-05-25 9:06 PM (#705392 - in reply to #705388)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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Mandar - 2018-05-25 9:21 PM

NYR # 1 - 2018-05-25 8:54 PM

To prove the point, look at this trade value chart:

Pick # 5 is valued at 741. 26 is valued at 297. 28 is valued at 283. 48 (our worse 2nd rounder from NJ) is valued at 186. Do the math...pick # 5 = 741. The 3 picks we'd trade = 766. AND we'd give up Spooner or Name.

So please don't tell me that is unfair or I am being crazy with that offer. Not saying it happens, but it absolutely would be a very fair trade for Arizona.

http://statsportsconsulting.com/main/wp-content/uploads/Schuckers_N...


Oh come on now...this is what you are using to back up your point? (no, you are using this random number chart to PROVE your point).

Some guy comes up with a random number chart, and you are all of a sudden proven right? Who is Michael Schuckers, and what do these random number values mean? Give us some context here instead of showing off your math skills cause you can add three numbers together.

This is not a right or wrong question. This is a would this be a fair offer or some crazy offer as some suggest. To me this helps show it is a fair offer. That doesn't mean I am right or someone else is wrong. It means anyone who is saying oh that is a crazy deal is over the top. Doesn't mean Zona or Vancouver would make the deal either. Just means overall it would absolutely be a fair deal. A team could say no...a team could say yes. But to say OMG what a crazy unfair deal...that is crazy.

And AGAIN last year for the # 7 pick and DeAngelo Zona got 6.5 mill NMC Stepan and one year of Raanta. Is that package better than two 1st's, a 2nd, and Name or Spooner...no it is not.

So not about right or wrong at all. What it is about is fair offer or not...and I 100% believe it would be a fair offer...and still Zona or Vancouver may pass if it was offered to them.


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NYR # 1
Posted 2018-05-25 9:08 PM (#705393 - in reply to #705389)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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Mjolnir - 2018-05-25 9:36 PM

NYR # 1 - 2018-05-25 8:42 PM

I think you guys are way overvaluing these not top 3 picks. # 5 Arizona or # 7 Vancouver I don't think would cost as much as you think. Why did Zona trade # 7 last year for 6.5 mill Stepan and one year of Raanta? That doesn't seem like some monster haul that you all are talking about.

Now to be clear I am not saying the Rangers will move to 5 or 7, but I don't think it would cost as much as some think. Both Zona and Vancouver might want to keep and make those picks. Odds are no trade happens that high (I do think we could see a top 12-15 or so pick come our way), but I don't think two 1st's, a 2nd, and Name or Spooner is way too little for # 5.


Arizona hasn't made a sensible trade since they managed to dump Yandle on us. To be honest, I still think the Stepan deal was more of a cap deal for them than for actually roster players.

This one doesn't make sense. Arizona hasn't made a sensible deal since Yandle...OKAY let's deal with them again. And Stepan was a cap deal for them? Does that mean they wanted to add a WAY overpaid player with a NMC 6.5 mill per for many years to help their cap...confused. Was it to get to the cap floor...if yes that's the contract they want to take AND give up the # 7 pick...confused.


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robstones
Posted 2018-05-25 9:20 PM (#705394 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)



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What would two 1st round picks + a 2nd + Namestnikov yield if we were trading for a roster player?

Like if we got Trouba with that people would be saying we overpaid, and typical Rangers trading away picks for another Redden or whatever. People would make comparisons to Ozolinch.

But it's not enough for Brady Tkachuk or Oliver Whalstrom?
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NYR # 1
Posted 2018-05-25 9:24 PM (#705395 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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You are making too much sense rob. Somehow giving up two 1st's, a decent 2nd AND a solid roster player as well is crazy for the # 5 pick. Not # 1...not top 3...but crazy for # 5. In other news we got # 7 last year for a terrible contract and one year of a career backup goalie. But two 1st's, a 2nd and a solid player is insane for # 5...



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Mjolnir
Posted 2018-05-25 9:49 PM (#705396 - in reply to #705395)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)



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NYR # 1 - 2018-05-25 11:24 PM

You are making too much sense rob. Somehow giving up two 1st's, a decent 2nd AND a solid roster player as well is crazy for the # 5 pick. Not # 1...not top 3...but crazy for # 5. In other news we got # 7 last year for a terrible contract and one year of a career backup goalie. But two 1st's, a 2nd and a solid player is insane for # 5...



Roster players? You have to do better than the likes of Spooner/Name.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-05-25 11:13 PM (#705397 - in reply to #705396)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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Mjolnir - 2018-05-25 11:49 PM

NYR # 1 - 2018-05-25 11:24 PM

You are making too much sense rob. Somehow giving up two 1st's, a decent 2nd AND a solid roster player as well is crazy for the # 5 pick. Not # 1...not top 3...but crazy for # 5. In other news we got # 7 last year for a terrible contract and one year of a career backup goalie. But two 1st's, a 2nd and a solid player is insane for # 5...



Roster players? You have to do better than the likes of Spooner/Name.

We also took that #7 and reached for Lias instead of taking Middlestadtd, Vilardi or Tippet
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NYR # 1
Posted 2018-05-26 5:44 AM (#705399 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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That has nothing to do with the current good discussion Red. I am struggling to think the offer rob and I are talking about is "unfair" and not near enough for the # 5 pick. The Stepan trade shows it is not "unfair", but people can have different opinions.

As for Andersson, I am not ready to say he was a reach. If he is a long time 2-way 2nd line C, I would be just fine with that at # 7. Time will tell.


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NYR # 1
Posted 2018-05-26 5:57 AM (#705400 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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Spooner had 13 goals and 41 points this past season. Name had 22 goals and 48 points this past season. Pretty sure that makes them solid NHL roster players, but maybe not.


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Rranger
Posted 2018-05-26 6:43 AM (#705401 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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I get its a hypothetical discussion. No way to prove right or wrong. Personally the trade discussed with Namestnikov is on the weak offer end, and depending on whose involved could get done, in the right draft year. I don't see it this year because of the quality of players in the top 10. If Pavel Brendl and Jamie Lundmark and their many question marks were available and Neil Smith was running the show, teams owning the high picks would be trading down again.
Teams are very cautious trading top ten picks, because of the potential career altering change in employment for G.M.'s. Nobody wants to be the guy who traded a draft pick that flowers like Guy Lafluer for scrubs. Those lessons were learned long ago when Sam Pollock was stealing picks in the early expansion years. In actuality how many times have teams traded out of the top ten for end of the first round picks? Not very often. Rangers are going to have a difficult time moving up period. Maybe a Tampa first round and a second to get to 16 to 24 or so and that would be about it. Reality is its a lot of hype leading up to the draft and The Rangers will pick where they are scheduled to now and after explaining they tried hard to move up but nothing made sense blah, blah, blah.
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NYR # 1
Posted 2018-05-26 9:28 AM (#705405 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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I agree, as I said earlier not about right or wrong. I think it would be a fair offer, and frankly it is a better package than it took for us to get up to 7 last year (and we got DeAngelo as well). With that all said I agree that the most likely scenario is we move up into the 12-15 or so range as I said earlier. Then we'd have two top 15 or so picks.

I actually don't agree that the Rangers will have a difficult time moving up though. I think they can move up for sure if they want to (again most likely in that 12-15 or so range). I believe we will make a trade and get into that range. That's my prediction on how it plays out. I just don't see us making all those picks in rounds 1-3.






Edited by NYR # 1 2018-05-26 9:31 AM
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robstones
Posted 2018-05-26 9:34 AM (#705406 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)



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This years' draft is a pretty deep one. The guys available in the 2nd and 3rd round have some real high end talent. Two 1sts and a 2nd in this years' draft is nice. I say the offer is too much. When you add in a top 9 young NHLer, I feel it would have to be the #5 + either a lesser prospect, or late round pick or something

Rick Nash brought back one 1st rounder, Lindgren (drafted 49th), and Spooner + Beleskey
Two 1st rounders, a 2nd, and either Spooner or Namestnikov isn't enough for Tkachuk or more likely, Oliver Whalstrom?

I think we have a shot. It's not too far off
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-05-26 11:17 AM (#705407 - in reply to #705406)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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Yep Rob and we have to hope that Gorton takes one of those guys...You have to take the BPA that high up.....Lias was not one of those last year....I am starting to wonder about Gordie....alot of misses with the premium picks....If he botches this year he should be thrown into the street....Rangers should just follow what Bob Mackenzies says
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NYR # 1
Posted 2018-05-26 12:09 PM (#705408 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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Totally agree about Andersson. That is a baked cake and we have given him plenty of time to say he won't be a player worthy of being a top 10 pick. I mean if it doesn't happen instantly we should write it off. I completely agree.


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robstones
Posted 2018-05-26 3:00 PM (#705410 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)



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I'm not sure what more Lias has to do compared to anyone taken after him to prove himself.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-05-26 3:26 PM (#705412 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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He had trouble keeping up with the NHL speed...he needs to improve his skating. I just would like to know why Middlestadt, Vilardi or Tippet were not thought of as a better pick than Lias by NYR
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-05-26 3:27 PM (#705413 - in reply to #705410)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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robstones - 2018-05-26 5:00 PM

I'm not sure what more Lias has to do compared to anyone taken after him to prove himself.

Are you selling Memorial Day weekend steaks like its going out of style?
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Rranger
Posted 2018-05-26 6:30 PM (#705414 - in reply to #705413)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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Mikey Red - 2018-05-26 2:27 PM

robstones - 2018-05-26 5:00 PM

I'm not sure what more Lias has to do compared to anyone taken after him to prove himself.

Are you selling Memorial Day weekend steaks like its going out of style?




To me the issue and I brought it up draft day is Andersson is rated no better than a second line center, more likely a third. Solid two way bla blah. No disrespect to the kid but that type of player is not hard to find.
Middlestadt who I was disappointed the Rangers didn’t draft, has number one center potential, and certainly if he reaches his expectations will quarterback a power play. The guy has go to offensive dynamo written all over him. That being said he like Andersson has to reach his potential, and if they both do who would you rather have?
Other factors are involved in the Rangers decision that we are not privy to, so you wait and see if it was a good or bad choice. If Middlestadt reaches his ceiling the Rangers may have major regrets. Even if both reach their potential the Rangers may still have regrets. It’s almost assumable the Rangers expect Middlestadt to fall short and Andersson to succeed. So it’s wait and see time.
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robstones
Posted 2018-05-26 9:21 PM (#705415 - in reply to #705414)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)



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Rranger - 2018-05-26 8:30 PM

Mikey Red - 2018-05-26 2:27 PM

robstones - 2018-05-26 5:00 PM

I'm not sure what more Lias has to do compared to anyone taken after him to prove himself.

Are you selling Memorial Day weekend steaks like its going out of style?




To me the issue and I brought it up draft day is Andersson is rated no better than a second line center, more likely a third. Solid two way bla blah. No disrespect to the kid but that type of player is not hard to find.
Middlestadt who I was disappointed the Rangers didn’t draft, has number one center potential, and certainly if he reaches his expectations will quarterback a power play. The guy has go to offensive dynamo written all over him. That being said he like Andersson has to reach his potential, and if they both do who would you rather have?
Other factors are involved in the Rangers decision that we are not privy to, so you wait and see if it was a good or bad choice. If Middlestadt reaches his ceiling the Rangers may have major regrets. Even if both reach their potential the Rangers may still have regrets. It’s almost assumable the Rangers expect Middlestadt to fall short and Andersson to succeed. So it’s wait and see time.


They took the safer pick. Andersson can absolutely be a top 6 guy.... The offense is there to play in all situations, PP included. His ceiling may not be quite as high, but he was playing highschool hockey, while Lias was playing with men at the pro level. Pavel Bendl had a really high ceiling, too. I'm not suggesting Mittlestadt is a potential bust, but I'm not sold he'll develope into a 1st line center, either....

Ellias Pettersson was ranked lower than Mittlestat, too....Gabriel Vilardi was ranked as high as 3rd by some "experts." Facts are when it comes to last year's draft... after Hischer and Patrick the rest of the 1st round was pretty wide open.

Chytil may be better than all of them.... Eeli Tolvanen may pan out better still....
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robstones
Posted 2018-05-27 8:18 AM (#705418 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)



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I think I like Whalstrom better than Tkachuk
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-05-27 8:26 AM (#705419 - in reply to #705418)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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Yeah I hear ya...I'm not sure...the knock on Wahlstrom is his skating...that scares me
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robstones
Posted 2018-05-27 8:50 AM (#705420 - in reply to #705419)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)



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Mikey Red - 2018-05-27 10:26 AM

Yeah I hear ya...I'm not sure...the knock on Wahlstrom is his skating...that scares me


I've never read or seen that. I'm pretty sure the one article I read comparing the two had Wahlstrom with the faster top speed.

Seems fine to me in video and games I've seen him play in.

Only player I've read with questionable skating is Bouchard
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-05-27 9:06 AM (#705421 - in reply to #705420)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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robstones - 2018-05-27 10:50 AM

Mikey Red - 2018-05-27 10:26 AM

Yeah I hear ya...I'm not sure...the knock on Wahlstrom is his skating...that scares me


I've never read or seen that. I'm pretty sure the one article I read comparing the two had Wahlstrom with the faster top speed.

Seems fine to me in video and games I've seen him play in.

Only player I've read with questionable skating is Bouchard

What I read...I think it was on BSB... was that Wahlstrom was a good skater...but does not possess that extra gear.....and Brady is considered a very good skater with that top gear
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-05-27 9:20 AM (#705422 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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Wahlstrom has the better sniper abilities tho...but can he do it at the NHL level?
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robstones
Posted 2018-05-27 1:20 PM (#705423 - in reply to #705422)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)



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Mikey Red - 2018-05-27 11:20 AM

Wahlstrom has the better sniper abilities tho...but can he do it at the NHL level?


I think that's like asking if Zadina can do it in the NHL

What I like most about Wahlstrom is he's younger by almost a full year.

Tkachuk captained team USA in the U18 last year and scored 1g 6a in 7gp
Wahlatrom put up 7g 2a in 7gp this year in his last U18

It'll be interesting to see what that extra year does. That said, Wahlstrom is listed at 6'1" 205lbs where Brady is 6'3, but 10 lbs lighter at 196 lbs

Numbers could be off. We'll see at the combine. Gotta love Tkachuk's size and style, but I think Wahlstrom may be the better pick.... He's that coveted right handed shot, too....

Edited by robstones 2018-05-27 1:21 PM
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Rranger
Posted 2018-05-27 1:23 PM (#705424 - in reply to #705415)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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robstones - 2018-05-26 8:21 PM

Rranger - 2018-05-26 8:30 PM

Mikey Red - 2018-05-26 2:27 PM

robstones - 2018-05-26 5:00 PM

I'm not sure what more Lias has to do compared to anyone taken after him to prove himself.

Are you selling Memorial Day weekend steaks like its going out of style?




To me the issue and I brought it up draft day is Andersson is rated no better than a second line center, more likely a third. Solid two way bla blah. No disrespect to the kid but that type of player is not hard to find.
Middlestadt who I was disappointed the Rangers didn’t draft, has number one center potential, and certainly if he reaches his expectations will quarterback a power play. The guy has go to offensive dynamo written all over him. That being said he like Andersson has to reach his potential, and if they both do who would you rather have?
Other factors are involved in the Rangers decision that we are not privy to, so you wait and see if it was a good or bad choice. If Middlestadt reaches his ceiling the Rangers may have major regrets. Even if both reach their potential the Rangers may still have regrets. It’s almost assumable the Rangers expect Middlestadt to fall short and Andersson to succeed. So it’s wait and see time.


They took the safer pick. Andersson can absolutely be a top 6 guy.... The offense is there to play in all situations, PP included. His ceiling may not be quite as high, but he was playing highschool hockey, while Lias was playing with men at the pro level. Pavel Bendl had a really high ceiling, too. I'm not suggesting Mittlestadt is a potential bust, but I'm not sold he'll develope into a 1st line center, either....

Ellias Pettersson was ranked lower than Mittlestat, too....Gabriel Vilardi was ranked as high as 3rd by some "experts." Facts are when it comes to last year's draft... after Hischer and Patrick the rest of the 1st round was pretty wide open.

Chytil may be better than all of them.... Eeli Tolvanen may pan out better still....



Safer pick is a dumb comment to start. How so, so he can attain his lower skill level and pre draft projection easier? In that sense brilliant drafting by the Rangers. Draft a guy with a lower potential ceiling, because there is a safer chance he will reach it. You yourself admit it in your post his ceiling may not be as high, and those are your words. Reality and scouts words is Middlestadt has a higher ceiling period. I get the Rangers sense of what they are getting with this kid but they blew a chance at a possible number one scoring power play catalyst center.
And Middlestadt really suffered playing high school hockey instead of in the mens league over in Sweden loaded with scrubs that can't make it over here. All Middlestadt did was outscore Andersson in the World juniors and in his late season NHL callup. So apparently no gain for Andersson playing there.
Assuming andersson makes the NHL this season and he's got that to do, we will see how he stacks up to Middlestadt who will be front and center in Buffalo.
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NYR # 1
Posted 2018-05-27 4:05 PM (#705425 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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Time will tell, and this is obviously not an exact science. I don't care who the scout or talent evaluator is, they ALL have misses on their resume. To me if Andersson becomes a good solid 2nd line C in the NHL I will be very happy. Sure we can point to players picked after that will be better in the long haul. There may even be a player ahead of him who is worse in the long haul. Cannot worry too much about it if Andersson becomes a good solid NHL player. Drafting players in every sport is littered with misses in all draft slots. Just the way it is with a very inexact science.




Edited by NYR # 1 2018-05-27 4:06 PM
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-05-27 4:25 PM (#705426 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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Take the BPA...always
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robstones
Posted 2018-05-27 4:36 PM (#705427 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)



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Mittlestadt had more assists than Lias at WJC. Andersson put the puck in the net more often, though

Edited by robstones 2018-05-27 4:37 PM
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-05-27 4:47 PM (#705428 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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Rob I hope you didnt have to work this weekend
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NYR # 1
Posted 2018-05-27 6:43 PM (#705429 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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BPA is subjective. That's the point. We can spin it anyway we want, but it is not an exact science. And take any scout or talent evaluator and review their record and you will fine misses. Just a reality of the job.

As for Andersson, I will focus on him. If he pans out to be a good solid 2nd line C I will be happy with that and look forward.


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robstones
Posted 2018-05-27 6:47 PM (#705430 - in reply to #705428)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)



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Mikey Red - 2018-05-27 6:47 PM

Rob I hope you didnt have to work this weekend


Of course I do. AND it's my birthday tomorrow!!!

I have off wednesday through next weekend, though.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-05-27 6:52 PM (#705431 - in reply to #702887)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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Yeah lets hope he is a regular contributor...But Clark picked Del Zotto, Mclrath, Sanguinetti, Miller with his 1's.... too many misses
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Rranger
Posted 2018-05-27 6:52 PM (#705432 - in reply to #705425)
Subject: Re: Rangers own #9 overall pick (What happens in the lottery)


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NYR # 1 - 2018-05-27 3:05 PM

Time will tell, and this is obviously not an exact science. I don't care who the scout or talent evaluator is, they ALL have misses on their resume. To me if Andersson becomes a good solid 2nd line C in the NHL I will be very happy. Sure we can point to players picked after that will be better in the long haul. There may even be a player ahead of him who is worse in the long haul. Cannot worry too much about it if Andersson becomes a good solid NHL player. Drafting players in every sport is littered with misses in all draft slots. Just the way it is with a very inexact science.









There are not near as many misses in the first round, your to bad so sad poor inexact pick stuff is not the way teams operate. You think the owner is signing scout and player personnel pay Cheques to hear “get them next year boys”, it’s a inexact science.
Don’t generalize and compare a 7 or 8 overall pick to the picks teams are making in the later rounds of a draft. They spend millions of $$ chasing these players with the majority of the resources geared towards the top end of the draft.
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