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Projected Line-up per Brooks
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-07 6:39 PM (#708560 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2018-08-07 6:48 PM (#708561 - in reply to #708556)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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x10003q - 2018-08-07 3:26 PM

Rangerjunkie - 2018-08-07 4:29 PM

I promise you that this isn't my intention...

I don't care about how other teams draft, I'm a Ranger fan, I only care how they draft!!


That does not change the fact that your expectations are unreasonable.


What exactly are my expectations??

I don't remember stating what I expected....

Do I expect more than 2 players out of 29 drafted to make it? Yes I do, if thats unreasonable, please tell me what is reasonable.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-07 7:14 PM (#708563 - in reply to #708561)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Sureshore accused me of saying something I didnt also...its a forum establishment thing I guess
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2018-08-07 7:28 PM (#708564 - in reply to #708563)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Mikey Red - 2018-08-07 7:14 PM

Sureshore accused me of saying something I didnt also...its a forum establishment thing I guess


Yeah I don't think he's accusing me of saying something I didn't say. He just thinks me expecting more than 2 players from 5 drafts is unreasonable...

I guess if my leadoff hitter was batting .050 it would be unreasonable for me to expect more.
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Go NYR
Posted 2018-08-07 7:50 PM (#708565 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Serious question. How do you guys factor in that the Rangers had no 1st round picks for years due to trades, traded away other valuable picks going for it, and picked in rounds where the %'s are very small the players taken will be NHL players (across the league not just with the Rangers)?

Truth be told I think we have been at best middle of the road drafting wise, but to be fair you must compare them to teams that have had similar type picks and focus - going for it. To compare them to all teams with 1st round picks, and extra picks, and high picks is crazy. When looked at in a fair context the Rangers have been whatever in the draft.

But you know what...who cares really. I will say what I have said 100 times recently - to me it will ALL be about the 2017 and 2018 drafts (especially the 5 picks in the 1st round) for Clark. I really don't think we need to expand beyond that considering we are now in future looking mode and have 1st round picks for the first time in years. So all this other talk is window dressing really. Either Clark hits on a large majority of the boat load of very good picks we have made in 17 or 18, or he will be judged a failure and out the door. Very simple to me.


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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2018-08-07 8:04 PM (#708566 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Serious answer to a serious question.

Lundmark, Jessiman, Korpakoski, Sanguetti, McLrath were all #1 picks. And apparently if you're hoping for just 2 of the 5 first round picks this year and last to make it, well then you are unreasonable.

Edited by Rangerjunkie 2018-08-07 8:13 PM
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2018-08-07 8:05 PM (#708567 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Del Zotto and Montoya were 1st round picks too
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-07 8:27 PM (#708568 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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First of all No 1st round picks due to BAD trades....It goes back way beyond Gordie....we are awful at drafting
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-07 8:28 PM (#708569 - in reply to #708564)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Rangerjunkie - 2018-08-07 9:28 PM

Mikey Red - 2018-08-07 7:14 PM

Sureshore accused me of saying something I didnt also...its a forum establishment thing I guess


Yeah I don't think he's accusing me of saying something I didn't say. He just thinks me expecting more than 2 players from 5 drafts is unreasonable...

I guess if my leadoff hitter was batting .050 it would be unreasonable for me to expect more.

hahaha yep I guess they never heard of Rickey Henderson
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x10003q
Posted 2018-08-07 8:36 PM (#708570 - in reply to #708561)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks



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Rangerjunkie - 2018-08-07 8:48 PM

x10003q - 2018-08-07 3:26 PM

Rangerjunkie - 2018-08-07 4:29 PM

I promise you that this isn't my intention...

I don't care about how other teams draft, I'm a Ranger fan, I only care how they draft!!


That does not change the fact that your expectations are unreasonable.


What exactly are my expectations??

I don't remember stating what I expected....

Do I expect more than 2 players out of 29 drafted to make it? Yes I do, if thats unreasonable, please tell me what is reasonable.


So we are supposed to believe that you do not know how to value draft picks? Maybe you should read the the following article:
https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-nhl-draft-pick-values-1.11...

While the draft may have not met your standards, somehow, there are a bunch of Rangers who, magically, have never played for another NHL team and where not drafted by the Rangers.
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2018-08-08 5:43 AM (#708574 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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It's not magic, it's called free agency.
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2018-08-08 6:10 AM (#708575 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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According to your source, picks 32-72 have a better chance of making it than the last pick of the 1st round......

And, pick 23 has a better chance than the 11th pick.....

Cant make this stuff up!
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concust
Posted 2018-08-08 9:21 AM (#708576 - in reply to #708575)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks



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Rangerjunkie - 2018-08-08 7:10 AM

According to your source, picks 32-72 have a better chance of making it than the last pick of the 1st round......

And, pick 23 has a better chance than the 11th pick.....

Cant make this stuff up!


You have to consider not only the ordinal value of the pick but also the situation they're getting drafted into. Last pick of first round is going to the Cup winner, a team who already has their top 6 figured out and are hoping to simply slow attrition. That's a tough roster for a kid to break into. The first pick of the second round is going to a team who is terrible, has a lot of borderline NHL players who are vulnerable to having their jobs taken by a kid who has even marginal NHL talent, because he's younger, costs less, and has higher potential.

So yeah I'm not at all surprised that the second kid is being put in a better position to get NHL success and succeed, than the first kid, even if the first kid is "drafted higher."
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concust
Posted 2018-08-08 9:24 AM (#708577 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks



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23 vs 11 is a tougher one to explain. I don't have a possible explanation for that one. Might just be one of those anomalies. It's still a small sample size, as even 1990-2014 is only 24 data points at pick 11 and 24 data points at pick 23. That's not huge so a couple of misses at #11 and a couple of hits at #23 could explain that.
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2018-08-08 9:45 AM (#708578 - in reply to #708577)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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concust - 2018-08-08 9:24 AM

23 vs 11 is a tougher one to explain. I don't have a possible explanation for that one. Might just be one of those anomalies. It's still a small sample size, as even 1990-2014 is only 24 data points at pick 11 and 24 data points at pick 23. That's not huge so a couple of misses at #11 and a couple of hits at #23 could explain that.


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concust
Posted 2018-08-08 10:15 AM (#708579 - in reply to #708578)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks



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Rangerjunkie - 2018-08-08 10:45 AM

concust - 2018-08-08 9:24 AM

23 vs 11 is a tougher one to explain. I don't have a possible explanation for that one. Might just be one of those anomalies. It's still a small sample size, as even 1990-2014 is only 24 data points at pick 11 and 24 data points at pick 23. That's not huge so a couple of misses at #11 and a couple of hits at #23 could explain that.




Statistics aside I'd still rather pick at 11 than 23.
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sureshore
Posted 2018-08-08 1:58 PM (#708580 - in reply to #708563)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Mikey Red - 2018-08-07 9:14 PM

Sureshore accused me of saying something I didnt also...its a forum establishment thing I guess


Fake News (to quote your favorite president)!

There's a whole lot of posts by you on the Kravtsev thread critical of Shestorkyin for signing on for 3 more years in KHL rather than playing in the Rangers system.

I guess our dear leader is setting the trend for trying to make us not believe what our own eyes and ears are telling us.

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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-08 2:33 PM (#708581 - in reply to #708580)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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sureshore - 2018-08-08 3:58 PM

Mikey Red - 2018-08-07 9:14 PM

Sureshore accused me of saying something I didnt also...its a forum establishment thing I guess


Fake News (to quote your favorite president)!

There's a whole lot of posts by you on the Kravtsev thread critical of Shestorkyin for signing on for 3 more years in KHL rather than playing in the Rangers system.

I guess our dear leader is setting the trend for trying to make us not believe what our own eyes and ears are telling us.


I have never said it was the FO fault for Shesty staying over there...which is what you said that I said.....You need new glasses...MAGA and MRGA
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2018-08-08 2:53 PM (#708582 - in reply to #708580)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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sureshore - 2018-08-08 1:58 PM

Mikey Red - 2018-08-07 9:14 PM

Sureshore accused me of saying something I didnt also...its a forum establishment thing I guess


Fake News (to quote your favorite president)!

There's a whole lot of posts by you on the Kravtsev thread critical of Shestorkyin for signing on for 3 more years in KHL rather than playing in the Rangers system.

I guess our dear leader is setting the trend for trying to make us not believe what our own eyes and ears are telling us.



"Trying to make us not believe what our own eyes and ears are telling us"

Sounds like what every president in my lifetime has done
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-08 3:06 PM (#708583 - in reply to #708582)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Rangerjunkie - 2018-08-08 4:53 PM

sureshore - 2018-08-08 1:58 PM

Mikey Red - 2018-08-07 9:14 PM

Sureshore accused me of saying something I didnt also...its a forum establishment thing I guess


Fake News (to quote your favorite president)!

There's a whole lot of posts by you on the Kravtsev thread critical of Shestorkyin for signing on for 3 more years in KHL rather than playing in the Rangers system.

I guess our dear leader is setting the trend for trying to make us not believe what our own eyes and ears are telling us.



"Trying to make us not believe what our own eyes and ears are telling us"

Sounds like what every president in my lifetime has done

hahaha
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Steady Eddie
Posted 2018-08-08 6:55 PM (#708584 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks



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Who the Rangers pick in the draft is always puzzling to me. They say they are going after the player that best fits their needs, not the best player available. Then when they draft a goalie in the 2nd round, they say he was the best player available. Let's face it, their track record in the first round is not very good. I will give them a pass in some years like 2004 (Montoya), because there wasn't much of a talent pool. The worst was the Jessiman pick, because of what they passed on. Again, they were going after the Keith Primeau type, not the best available player. The big difference was, Primeau knew how to skate. When you look at the stats of the 2003 first round players, it's embarrassing. I marvel at why Sather still has a job with us.

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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-08 7:39 PM (#708585 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Lol yep 2003 1st round has Hall of Famers in it.....We took the kid from Dartmouth College...who just started playing hockey....Supposedly Renney was all over Jessiman...marvel is an understatement
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-08 7:45 PM (#708586 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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12 Hugh Jessiman (RW)
13 Dustin Brown (RW)
14 Brent Seabrook (D)
15 Robert Nilsson (RW)
16 Steve Bernier (RW)
17 Zach Parise (LW)
18 Eric Fehr (RW)
19 Ryan Getzlaf (C)
20 Brent Burns (RW)
21 Mark Stuart (D)
22 Marc-Antoine Pouliot (C)
23 Ryan Kesler (C)
24 Mike Richards (C)
25 Anthony Stewart (RW)
26 Brian Boyle (C)
27 Jeff Tambellini (LW)
28 Corey Perry (RW)
29 Patrick Eaves (RW)
30 Shawn Belle (D)
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Rranger
Posted 2018-08-08 10:40 PM (#708588 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Jessiman was on Tom Renneys watch a guy hired as Director of Player Personell with very little experience in that end of things. He was a coach who worked his way up to Kamloops in the WHL when Kamloops had one of the best organizations going. Coaches in the WHL do very little recruiting if any, they coach what the team scouting staff and GM put in front of him. Kamloops had a excellent feeder system and scouting staff. Truly a flagship franchise in those days.
Onwards and upwards to the NHL for the start of a coaching career in Vancouver. And then Glen Sather hires him to run the Rangers amateur scouting and entry draft. A guy with hardly any experience in the role. What could go wrong? Hugh Jessiman. And then hired to coach the Rangers before Jessiman showed his colours. Was very happy when he finally got the punt.

Edited by Rranger 2018-08-08 10:42 PM
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-09 7:37 AM (#708589 - in reply to #708588)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Rranger - 2018-08-09 12:40 AM

Jessiman was on Tom Renneys watch a guy hired as Director of Player Personell with very little experience in that end of things. He was a coach who worked his way up to Kamloops in the WHL when Kamloops had one of the best organizations going. Coaches in the WHL do very little recruiting if any, they coach what the team scouting staff and GM put in front of him. Kamloops had a excellent feeder system and scouting staff. Truly a flagship franchise in those days.
Onwards and upwards to the NHL for the start of a coaching career in Vancouver. And then Glen Sather hires him to run the Rangers amateur scouting and entry draft. A guy with hardly any experience in the role. What could go wrong? Hugh Jessiman. And then hired to coach the Rangers before Jessiman showed his colours. Was very happy when he finally got the punt.

Truly insane!...Dartmouth College
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Rranger
Posted 2018-08-09 7:52 AM (#708590 - in reply to #708566)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Rangerjunkie - 2018-08-07 7:04 PM

Serious answer to a serious question.

Lundmark, Jessiman, Korpakoski, Sanguetti, McLrath were all #1 picks. And apparently if you're hoping for just 2 of the 5 first round picks this year and last to make it, well then you are unreasonable.




You forget the immortal Pavel Brendl.
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Rranger
Posted 2018-08-09 7:56 AM (#708591 - in reply to #708584)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Steady Eddie - 2018-08-08 5:55 PM

Who the Rangers pick in the draft is always puzzling to me. They say they are going after the player that best fits their needs, not the best player available. Then when they draft a goalie in the 2nd round, they say he was the best player available. Let's face it, their track record in the first round is not very good. I will give them a pass in some years like 2004 (Montoya), because there wasn't much of a talent pool. The worst was the Jessiman pick, because of what they passed on. Again, they were going after the Keith Primeau type, not the best available player. The big difference was, Primeau knew how to skate. When you look at the stats of the 2003 first round players, it's embarrassing. I marvel at why Sather still has a job with us.





Its almost like the Rangers want to shock the pundits on draft day.
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Mandar
Posted 2018-08-09 8:34 AM (#708592 - in reply to #708590)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Rranger - 2018-08-09 9:52 AM

Rangerjunkie - 2018-08-07 7:04 PM

Serious answer to a serious question.

Lundmark, Jessiman, Korpakoski, Sanguetti, McLrath were all #1 picks. And apparently if you're hoping for just 2 of the 5 first round picks this year and last to make it, well then you are unreasonable.




You forget the immortal Pavel Brendl.

Now that is where the Monday Morning Quarterbacking starts......

There is no defending he Jessiman or McIlrath picks....at the time of their drafts, they were also noted as "reaches".

But the Brendl & Lundmark draft? Pretty much every single person who knew anything about the sport at the time was saying that they had the best draft of any team, and the Rangers received compliments from all the pundits. There was no questioning at the time of the other first rounders that have been mentioned....and they were not declared to be "busts" until well after (which can be said about most teams, I'm sure). This is why the draft is pretty much a crap shoot.

Most think that Cherepanov would have been a star or close to it, right? But he could have been the second coming of Stefan Cherneski. Sadly, we will never know.....but you always hope that they pan out.

Also....that Jessiman draft was 15 years ago....when does everyone let it go?
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-09 8:48 AM (#708594 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Jessiman was a horrendous pick...how do you draft him when he plays at F'n Dartmouth and just started playing the game a few years ago? And knowing all that you know about all the players eligible to pick that year? Mclrath was called a "project" on draft night..#10 pick......Sanguinetti was a disaster too. Del Zotto was a bust...JT Miller was a underachiever....not a top 6 forward... We dont let it go because you can go back a long time and see all the misses and 4th line scrubs we draft
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-09 9:00 AM (#708596 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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And if you want to make the point we had no 1's last few years...You have to say that is horrendous team management ...a #1 plus 2 top 9 forwards for Nash....2 #1's and a top 6 forward for 38 yr old MSL...a #1 plus a good prospect and a D man for Yandle....People should get fired for body of work like that
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Mandar
Posted 2018-08-09 9:32 AM (#708597 - in reply to #708594)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Mikey Red - 2018-08-09 10:48 AM

Jessiman was a horrendous pick...how do you draft him when he plays at F'n Dartmouth and just started playing the game a few years ago? And knowing all that you know about all the players eligible to pick that year? Mclrath was called a "project" on draft night..#10 pick......Sanguinetti was a disaster too. Del Zotto was a bust...JT Miller was a underachiever....not a top 6 forward... We dont let it go because you can go back a long time and see all the misses and 4th line scrubs we draft


No one is defending the Jessiman pick, so you are basically arguing with yourself. Same with McIlrath...so whats your point? To keep saying they were awful picks when no one disputes that?

As for the others you mentioned, at the time they were drafted, no one had negative stuff to say.....as they were good prospects that were regarded as first rounders, and you hoped they would develop into solid NHL players.....some did, some didn't....that's the crapshoot.
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Mandar
Posted 2018-08-09 9:43 AM (#708598 - in reply to #708596)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Mikey Red - 2018-08-09 11:00 AM

And if you want to make the point we had no 1's last few years...You have to say that is horrendous team management ...a #1 plus 2 top 9 forwards for Nash....2 #1's and a top 6 forward for 38 yr old MSL...a #1 plus a good prospect and a D man for Yandle....People should get fired for body of work like that


Horrendous team management? Those deals were responsible for achieving a high level of sustained success, you have to give to get.

But doesn't this contradict your assessment of how the front office has success with drafts? 2 top 9 forwards for Nash? Both Anisimov & Dubie were drafted by the team....pretty good drafting there, huh? The good prospect in the Yandle deal? (Duclair)....seems they drafted him too. Top 6 forward for St. Louis? Callahan was another of those successful draft picks that you claim they cant make. You cried when they let Hags go (you still cant grasp that reality)....wasn't he a draft pick too?

So what is it....you want to cherry pick the non hall of fame first rounders? Go ahead and keep preaching that Jessiman was the horrible pick he was....keep moaning about how they took McIlrath (I'd bet you loved that pick when it happened). Want to point out the first round busts....fine...and keep lamenting over that if it makes you feel good (which nothing this team does seems to do for you). Wanna claim that they are horrible at drafting? Well, that is just blatantly false.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-09 10:09 AM (#708599 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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I talk of the premium picks...and look what happens...we get success in the lower rounds which is great....then we blow it up and give away the # 1's to replace those assets....awful......Duby was the last Ranger pick of the 2nd round in 2004...they had 4 #2's that draft....I loved Duby but the other 3 #2's were never weres ....Cally was a 4th round pick...home run there too ....Gordie did not pick either of those guys....We also had 2 #1's that years....Montoya and Korpakaski....fail.....Artie was a good 2nd rounder in 2006...should of kept him...but he was the only 1 of 7 picks that made it...Hags was a 6th rounder in 2007...home run...only one of 6 to make it ...loved him...was a good Ranger...we gave him away for free...but he was not a top 6 forward....Yes we have picked some winners...but our premium pick record is terrible...For every guy that does make it there is a Lee Felardeau, Darin Oliver, Ivan Baranka, Dane Byers, Bruce Graham, Antoine LaFleur, Ethan Werek that doesnt make it
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-09 10:17 AM (#708600 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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Dustin Brown very next pick after Hugh...Claude Giroux very next pick after Sanginetti ....Jordan Eberle 2 picks after Del Zotto...and John Carlsson a few picks later...After McLrath there is plenty to throw up to see what they passed on....Yes its a crap shoot but come on....even in 2003 TV said the draft was not the Rangers strong sui....right before they picked Hugh...and Sathers interview right after was priceless...You could tell he had no idea who he just picked lol
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Mikey Red
Posted 2018-08-09 10:31 AM (#708601 - in reply to #708308)
Subject: Re: Projected Line-up per Brooks


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2003 was a HOF 1st round draft and we epically failed....So in 2004 the hockey Gods threw us a bone...2 #1's and 4 #2's ....Duby was our only guy to make it ...could have had Duby and Keicji in Rd 2...They didnt even take the best Goalie in that year when they picked Montoya....then right after we picked Korpakaski....Devils picked Zajac
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