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Jackets fire Lefebvre for not getting Vaccinated
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Fish
Posted 2021-09-13 10:17 AM (#780864)
Subject: Jackets fire Lefebvre for not getting Vaccinated



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https://theathletic.com/2823666/2021/09/13/blue-jackets-hire-steve-m...

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David Quinn
Posted 2021-09-21 3:06 PM (#780921 - in reply to #780864)
Subject: Re: Jackets fire Lefebvre for not getting Vaccinated





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Get vaccinated and save lives.

Good, may his soul rot in hell for being an anti science anti vax Trumper.

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Fish
Posted 2021-09-23 11:50 AM (#780941 - in reply to #780864)
Subject: Re: Jackets fire Lefebvre for not getting Vaccinated



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Sounds like they won't let Zac Rinaldo come to camp either because he refuses the vaccine

Isles also come out with a mandate for vaccinations
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PV29
Posted 2021-09-23 5:47 PM (#780945 - in reply to #780941)
Subject: Re: Jackets fire Lefebvre for not getting Vaccinated





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At least some guys still have the balls to stand by their convictions and not knuckle under to tyranny.

I got the shot so that I didn't have to worry about people who didn't. So why the witch-hunt against people who choose not to get injected with an experimental therapeutic? There are also approximately 100 million people in the U.S. who now have natural immunity to the virus and don't need an injection. And there are therapeutics, as well as healthy lifestyle choices, that can help you avoid a serious complication from COVID. Or you can just go along with whatever this lying, corrupt, government tells you to do.

These guys chose liberty despite threats and coercion, and I respect that.
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Fish
Posted 2021-09-24 8:53 AM (#780948 - in reply to #780864)
Subject: Re: Jackets fire Lefebvre for not getting Vaccinated



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I think calling the vaccines an "experimental therapeutic" is grossly misstating what they are. For one, the Pfizer vaccine was officially approved by the FDA on August 23rd this year, so has the same status as any other vaccine you might get, such as Tetanus, Measles etc. In addition the MRNA technique that Moderna and Pfizer have used to create their vaccines are actually simpler than traditional vaccines, in that they introduce a piece of Messenger RNA, which mirrors the COVID virus ability to produce a specific protein on it's surface, which basically provides a marker then for your immune system to attack it. It's a more targeted approach than traditional introduction of weakened or dead virus/bacteria into the body.

While there's risk in any vaccine, the rate of complication from these vaccines has been very low. The CDC puts it at around 2-5 per million doses. As a comparative, there was a study run against 1.8M young teens getting MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) vaccine which reported around 8 per million.

In terms of there being a witch hunt, I'd disagree with that again. Those players and personnel can still choose not to get the shot, but like so many choices in our life, there are consequences to that. As we've seen in the past, viruses spread pretty quickly through hockey teams...we see it every winter with cold/flu, and we've seen it with Mumps just a couple of years ago. At the least, there's a financial/performance impact to the team, and if you're unlucky, it can be worse.

Players and personnel can choose not to have the vaccine, but there is a consequence to that choice, just like there's a consequence to choosing to drive a car while under the influence of drugs/alcohol. You might be okay, but your choices could cause impact to others. In the case of drunk driving, it might be fairly minimal, with a vaccine it can be quite widespread.

As for having a healthy lifestyle and that helping you avoid serious complications, that shouldn't be construed to providing protection. Certainly underlying conditions (age, diabetes, obesity, high blood pressure, breathing disorders) contribute to higher risk, just like something like smoking increases your risk for heart disease, there appears also to be a genetic aspect to it that has caused healthy people to also fall prey to this disease. It's also worth noting that there are some longer term effects to the disease for some, with loss of smell/taste, scarring in the lungs and difficulty performing physical activities. Again, who ends up with these "long" symptoms is not well known yet, but for those who suffer them, there is a definite impact to their lives that goes beyond the initial impact of the disease.

There's also a financial impact to getting COVID, costing around $25K on average for each hospitalization, and that money is often not being paid by the sick individual, but by taxpayers, health insurance policy holders or the hospitals themselves, meaning that it impacts us all. Per the CDC, the cumulative rate so far puts the rate at around 0.7% of the US population have been hospitalized for COVID, or around 23-24 million people. At 25K per, that equates to around $575B of additional cost as a result of COVID. Certainly not all of that could be prevented, but deeper vaccine penetration and safer behaviors (social distancing, masks, frequent hand washing) would certainly have reduced the cost.

Bottom line, a player, coach or anyone for that matter can make the choice to not get the virus, but because their choices create a risk to others, it's within the right of their employers to manage that risk. We can choose the risks we take for ourselves, but taking risks for others means you're impinging on their rights.

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PV29
Posted 2021-09-24 6:02 PM (#780950 - in reply to #780948)
Subject: Re: Jackets fire Lefebvre for not getting Vaccinated





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Choosing to not get an unproven injection is not the same as choosing to drive drunk. Not even close, so let's start there.

These injections have not been studied using traditional efficacy and side effect trial like other, proven, vaccines. Also, the rate of breakthrough infection in these shots is far beyond what has been seen in other vaccines, which have essentially wiped out polio, measles, and small pox (all viral illnesses). Also, Pfizer, Moderna, and the CDC have admitted that these shots have declining effectiveness over time, hence the need for so-called "boosters". This is strong evidence that these shots are merely therapeutics with a declining effectiveness profile rather than a true vaccine which gives lasting T-Cell protection. Compared to vaccines for other diseases, this is a laughable efficacy picture. Lastly, while we have many years of data for side effects from vaccines such as MMR, we have less than a year of data regarding the mRNA shots. So the side effect profile is far from a complete data set.

This is witch hunt because nobody is asking a simple question: do either Lefebvre or Rinaldo have natural immunity from a prior infection? Instead, the science of virology and immunology is ignored and people are vilified without a rational reason. Ignoring science and branding people as evil because of something that the people in power have vilified is the very definition of a witch hunt.

Lastly, and most importantly, how does an unvaccinated person pose a "risk" to someone who is vaccinated? What's the science behind that? If you're vaccinated, then ...... you're vaccinated. But of course, that's not what we've seen in Israel, the most vaccinated country per capita in the world, is it? People with natural immunity have far better protection from the virus than people who take the shot, as proven in Israel. Also, Norway, Sweden and Denmark have eased all restrictions due to the fact that they now have natural herd immunity, without mass vaccinations.

The fact that our government is claiming that vaccinated people are in danger because of unvaccinated people is either:

1) a tacit admission by our government that the "vaccines" are not really vaccines since the rate of breakthrough infection is so high and so many people are still getting infected despite getting the shot; or

2) an evil gaslighting by our government to keep everyone in fear for their lives because it gives them power and helps to make mail-in voting more acceptable in 2022.

I took the shot, so I'm not an "anti-vaxxer". It was my personal choice for my personal reasons. But I have no problem with people who choose not to get it. It's THEIR choice. Robbing them of their livelihood and their rights/freedoms is not legal or moral. You can't take things from people without due process in this country. I hope Lefebvre sues Columbus for millions.
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David Quinn
Posted 2021-09-26 6:56 AM (#780960 - in reply to #780950)
Subject: Re: Jackets fire Lefebvre for not getting Vaccinated





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PV29 - 2021-09-24 6:02 PM

Choosing to not get an unproven injection is not the same as choosing to drive drunk. Not even close, so let's start there.

These injections have not been studied using traditional efficacy and side effect trial like other, proven, vaccines. Also, the rate of breakthrough infection in these shots is far beyond what has been seen in other vaccines, which have essentially wiped out polio, measles, and small pox (all viral illnesses). Also, Pfizer, Moderna, and the CDC have admitted that these shots have declining effectiveness over time, hence the need for so-called "boosters". This is strong evidence that these shots are merely therapeutics with a declining effectiveness profile rather than a true vaccine which gives lasting T-Cell protection. Compared to vaccines for other diseases, this is a laughable efficacy picture. Lastly, while we have many years of data for side effects from vaccines such as MMR, we have less than a year of data regarding the mRNA shots. So the side effect profile is far from a complete data set.

This is witch hunt because nobody is asking a simple question: do either Lefebvre or Rinaldo have natural immunity from a prior infection? Instead, the science of virology and immunology is ignored and people are vilified without a rational reason. Ignoring science and branding people as evil because of something that the people in power have vilified is the very definition of a witch hunt.

Lastly, and most importantly, how does an unvaccinated person pose a "risk" to someone who is vaccinated? What's the science behind that? If you're vaccinated, then ...... you're vaccinated. But of course, that's not what we've seen in Israel, the most vaccinated country per capita in the world, is it? People with natural immunity have far better protection from the virus than people who take the shot, as proven in Israel. Also, Norway, Sweden and Denmark have eased all restrictions due to the fact that they now have natural herd immunity, without mass vaccinations.

The fact that our government is claiming that vaccinated people are in danger because of unvaccinated people is either:

1) a tacit admission by our government that the "vaccines" are not really vaccines since the rate of breakthrough infection is so high and so many people are still getting infected despite getting the shot; or

2) an evil gaslighting by our government to keep everyone in fear for their lives because it gives them power and helps to make mail-in voting more acceptable in 2022.

I took the shot, so I'm not an "anti-vaxxer". It was my personal choice for my personal reasons. But I have no problem with people who choose not to get it. It's THEIR choice. Robbing them of their livelihood and their rights/freedoms is not legal or moral. You can't take things from people without due process in this country. I hope Lefebvre sues Columbus for millions.


You're blocked anti vaxing trump Nazi asshole. How dare you.
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Fish
Posted 2021-09-28 10:11 AM (#780990 - in reply to #780864)
Subject: Re: Jackets fire Lefebvre for not getting Vaccinated



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While they did not follow traditional approval methods, the vaccines did go through accelerated trials, and then also had studies done on those who used them during the emergency use authorization time period. The data was sufficient for the FDA to fully approve the vaccine in late August. Moderna and J&J remain in emergency use.

If you're interested, here's the FDA's page that references the background on how they came to approve the Pfizer one: https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/coronavirus-...

If you think about it, the COVID vaccine isn't that far off what they do every year with the Flu vaccine. Each year, a new Flu vaccine is produced in anticipation of the projected major strain will be prominent that year, and they develop a vaccine to combat that. It's not a perfect match, as the Flu vaccine still relies on using disabled forms of the virus, versus just the proteins as is the case for Pfizer and Moderna, but you could argue that the Flu vaccine doesn't go through the same level of rigor.

There's another parallel between COVID and Influenza, in that they are both relatively vigorous when it comes to mutations, as well as being relatively easy to spread, with lowish mortality allowing the host to spread more (as opposed to say SARS which killed the host more frequently). As such the longer the virus is out in the wild and the more hosts in comes in contact with, the greater chance of mutation, which reduces the effectiveness of the vaccine. I saw some data over the summer that suggested those vaccinated with Pfizer's vaccine saw an increase from around 5% to 15% infection rates, in alignment with the rise of Delta as the predominant variant.

It also should be noted that having had COVID provides some protection, but does not provide you immunity, probably again because of the mutation of the virus. For instance those who have a relatively low infection rate, produce far fewer antibodies than those that have been hit hard. Getting the vaccine can provide as much as 2 to 3 times the stimulation effect on your immune system, than a regular infection can, so whether or not they have been exposed doesn't typically provide the same level of protection as the vaccine.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

Also recently the University of Minnesota published an article suggesting the transmission of the virus drops from around 31% for unvaccinated individuals to 11% for vaccinated individuals, so again would help stop the spread.

As for breakthrough cases, and booster shots, it's pretty common amongst vaccines, particularly when you think about Flu shots and the fact that having the Flu once (or several times) does not prevent you getting the Flu again, though Flu shots do often reduce the extreme effects, and can help reduce spread. Likewise even more staid diseases like Tetanus require a 10 year booster, and even things like Chicken Pox and Measles are suggested boosters for front line people who are more likely to be exposed.

The biggest risk to the world remains the ability for the virus to mutate yet again, and perhaps become even more deadly. The more hosts, and the longer the virus is reproducing, the greater the chance of mutating....and the longer this disease sticks around in a lethal form. There's some work being done here to provide a more broad spectrum coronavirus vaccine (it's a relatively common virus) and we're learning a lot along the way, but IMO the risk of not getting the vaccine is significantly more real and measurable than the perceived risk of the vaccine, which has been delivered to hundreds of millions of people worldwide.

This is a public health issue, not a political one...though it has been made into one. When you choose to not take the vaccine, you take a risk not only for yourself, but those around you, and that is why I used the Drunk Driving analogy. I certainly appreciate your point of view, and the thought you've put into it, I just have a different one.
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Fish
Posted 2021-09-28 10:29 AM (#780991 - in reply to #780864)
Subject: Re: Jackets fire Lefebvre for not getting Vaccinated



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Also forgot to mention, as you brought it up:

Norway as of last week, had a fully vaccinated rate of 66.86% of their popular, 76.48% with at least one dose
Denmark removed their restrictions after they hit 74% of their population fully vaccinated (80% of those eligible)
Portugal is another country removing restrictions, with 85% of eligible individuals having been vaccinated

US is sitting at around 65% and 56% respectively...there's also of course a substantial "count" difference as the US has over 330M people, versus Norway with around 5.5M. That's important because while the percentage can demonstrate a rate, the number of potential carriers, and the chance of exposure increase with the more people who are not vaccinated.

Sweden is a bit of a different case, with around 11% of the population having been infected to date, and fewer restrictions having been put in place during the term of the pandemic. Even still, they've managed 64% of their population fully vaccinated.
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PV29
Posted 2021-10-04 6:01 PM (#781149 - in reply to #780864)
Subject: Re: Jackets fire Lefebvre for not getting Vaccinated





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The "flu shot" that is offered yearly is not a "vaccine" as that word is traditionally and correctly used. The "flu shot" is a therapeutic that reduces the chance of infection and reduces the symptoms associated with infection. Indeed, the J&J COVID shot is a "flu shot" in that it uses an adenovirus (common cold virus) as the vector to introduce the spike protein.

A traditional or true vaccine does not require yearly boosters or modified formulas to prevent infection from variants. Small pox, polio, measles, all viruses, mutate over time. Yet the vaccines we got as kids have protected us for many years. Nobody gets a yearly injection or so-called booster every year for measles or other diseases for which there is a true vaccine. What we have now for COVID is certainly helpful, but it is not a true c=vaccine as it does not provide lasting T-Cell protection.

All the science is debatable and it's refreshing to actually debate and discuss it rather than get screamed at that the science is "settled". However, the situation is not really scientific but social policy. Thousands of teachers, cops, firefighters, and healthcare workers are getting fired right now because of a "mandate" that has not been passed as a law in this country. Good people who have committed no crime are being horribly punished based upon debatable science. That should piss off every clear-thinking person in this country.

And here's the real problem: if they can destroy your life because you refused to take an injection, what else can they force upon you? Do you really think that the people in charge will ever stop at just this? They never stop.
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